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U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

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Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how quickly and easily vast swaths of our political leadership would sell out to completely destroy our Constitutional principles This is not something done to us by leadership. This is a democracy; we voted for this. We have another election coming up momentarily. We have the opportunity to put a stop to this. There's good reason to think that the election will not be entirely fair, but there are limits: if people a…

Nobody voted for this. People voted for the proclaimed plans , but that turned out to be lies and deception solely for getting the votes.

Tons of people voted for this.

It's like people forget Trump had an entire first term and a movement all over social media espousing their authoritarian ideals and accelerationist goals.

January 6th happened during his first term and half the country cheered. He had supporters in the government talking about a coup back then.

They literally published their plans in an itinerary. It had bullet points and everything.

And to this day people still support him. That's how you know the "nobody voted for this" line is just hogwash. A third of the country still supports everything he's doing, and they would vote for him again if they could.

No one who voted for Trump this time gets to plead ignorance. Complicity or stupidity, those are the options.

Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did the use of Obummer give you that sense?

Oh we have to worship our ex presidents like kings? It’s possible to criticize both Trump and Obama. For example my top criticism of Obama is that he killed a 15 year old American child without trial. His press secretary was not only was unapologetic he said “ I would suggest that you should have a far more responsible father if they are truly concerned about the well-being of their children.” https://en.wikipedia.or…

Drone strikes would be my top Obama criticism, followed by not closing Guantanamo, but I can use the man's name without some clever nickname. That's just not worthy of the actual conversation. It a very Trumpian thing to do

Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#223
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think the free market would have selected for the current cost vs safety balance on its own. Possibly not. Possibly in a free market people still would fly on an aircraft type that was known to have had two recent crashes that killed everyone on board. I wouldn't, but perhaps I'm an outlier. But if people would be willing to fly on such an aircraft in a free market (which means that the value of flying on i…

Some people are willing to be drive drunk. This doesn't mean that taking into account the views of people who don't want to be killed by drunk people when determining who gets to use the roads is "overestimating the value we actually put on human life" (also, without the safety reporting infrastructure and mandatory disclosures the average person would have absolutely no ability to learn whether the crashes said anyt…

> Some people are willing to be drive drunk. This doesn't mean that taking into account the views of people who don't want to be killed by drunk people when determining who gets to use the roads is "overestimating the value we actually put on human life"

You're assuming there is just one such value. There isn't. People who are willing to drive drunk put less value on human life than people who aren't. We deal with that by penalizing people for driving drunk, to give them another incentive not to do it. And, as you say, we do that because people who drive drunk are doing it on the same roads as everyone else, and many if not most people have to use the roads as part of their daily lives, and they value their lives more than the people who choose to drive drunk do.

Also, the person who drives drunk bears risk--they can get injured or killed themselves. They can control that risk

Air travel is not like that. Most people do not have to travel by air as part of their daily lives. Plus, the people who design, build, and maintain the airplanes are not the ones who bear the risks of a crash: the crews and passengers do. So the incentives involved are different.

But there's another aspect to this as well. An airline is not going to operate an airplane unless they can sell enough seats to make it profitable, and not just for one flight, for the expected lifetime of the airplane. So we're not talking about one person choosing to drive drunk. We're talking about enough people choosing to fly on an airplane type that's known to have had fatal crashes due to a design flaw, for a long enough time to make it profitable for an airline to operate that airplane. That is the hypothetical I was responding to, and in that hypothetical, you can't make the kind of argument you're making, that it's a small minority of obvious outliers who are making what you consider to be the "bad" choice.

And it wasn't my hypothetical, I was just responding to it. I actually don't agree with its premise: I don't think that in a free market enough people would choose to fly on such an airplane to make it profitable for an airline to operate it. And at least one reason why I believe that is the differences between that hypothetical scenario, and the current reality of some people choosing to drive drunk, which I've just described.

> without the safety reporting infrastructure and mandatory disclosures the average person would have absolutely no ability to learn whether the crashes said anything about the safety of the aircraft as a whole

Straw man. In a free market where people knew they could not depend on the government to "regulate" (and, as I've pointed out, it didn't in this case), people would refuse to fly on airplanes whose safety records were not well-documented and attested public knowledge. To do otherwise would be obviously foolish. The only reason people don't seek out more such information now is that they believe the government has their back so they don't have to. And that belief, as we've seen, is not justified. In a free market, indeed, a safety reporting infrastructure not very different from what we have now would be expected to evolve--but because it was not run by a government and could not take advantage of the free pass the government gets to skimp on regulations, it would have to build and maintain a justified track record of accuracy.

> You'd have never known about the 737 Max crashes otherwise

You must be joking. They were worldwide news. We didn't need government safety reporting to tell us that two 737 Max aircraft crashed killing everyone on board. Which all by itself would make any sane person not want to fly on a 737 Max aircraft until they understood what had happened and were convinced the root cause had been fixed.

Indeed, the safety reporting system, if anything, contributed to facilitating the crashes--by not bringing to light the many instances of reports by pilots of US flag air carriers about odd behavior of 737 Max aircraft in exactly the same conditions that led to the two crashes. The existence of those reports only came to light, as far as the public was concerned, after the fact, when it was too late.

Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#224
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't put words in my mouth. I have never said that people being harmed and killed is acceptable. My disagreement is about whether government regulations, on net, actually result in fewer people being harmed and killed, or more. That's a factual disagreement, not a disagreement about values. If I believed, factually, that government regulations actually did result in fewer people being harmed, on net, I would be in f…

This argument is on the level of anti vaxxers questioning vaccines when they dont see those diseases anymore. One can only make such an argument by being offensively ignorant of history.

> This argument is on the level of anti vaxxers questioning vaccines when they dont see those diseases anymore.

I have no idea where you're getting this from; the argument I'm making is nothing at all like this. Indeed, I have pointed out many bad things that still exist even in the presence of massive government regulation, and are not stopped by such regulation even though they are exactly the kinds of things the regulation was supposed to stop. That is the opposite of what you are claiming my argument is.

> One can only make such an argument by being offensively ignorant of history.

I pointed out elsewhere in the thread who I think is ignorant of history, and it isn't me.

Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#225
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you’re seeing is the result of the USA voting in a party and president that made it clear beforehand that they were going to install puppet civil servants to do their will. Most other developed countries have avoided this scenario.

It’s important that most of the civil service is staffed by permanent employees hired through a fair and well-defined process and not appointed for political reasons.

It's equally important to note that the current administration is absolutely gutting those formerly non-political permanent hires and replacing them with apparatchiks. It's going to be very difficult to remove them all from office if this nightmare ever ends.

Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#226
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think the free market would have selected for the current cost vs safety balance on its own. Possibly not. Possibly in a free market people still would fly on an aircraft type that was known to have had two recent crashes that killed everyone on board. I wouldn't, but perhaps I'm an outlier. But if people would be willing to fly on such an aircraft in a free market (which means that the value of flying on i…

I agree entirely with the sibling comment. Put another way, just because the layman majority would accept something under a given set of conditions that doesn't make it right or ideal or something to strive for. Even given the current environment Boeing still tried to (unsuccessfully) shift blame away from themselves. Imagine how that might have gone differently in a "free market" where "unencumbered" by regulation t…

> a "free market" where "unencumbered" by regulation there wasn't even proper investigation or disclosure.

Straw man. As I pointed out in another post upthread, in a free market, nobody would fly on Boeing aircraft (or anyone's aircraft) if they did not have a well documented and attested safety record, and independent parties would be in the business of documenting and attesting to such things. And since those independent parties would not be able to get the free pass the government gets to skimp on regulations as they did with Boeing, they would have to build and maintain a track record of accuracy.

The only reason people don't seek out such information independently now is that they believe the government has their back so they don't need to. Which, of course, is an unjustified belief.

> you seem to be approaching this with the a priori assumption that whatever the free market would arrive at is the correct result.

I have made no such assumption. There is no single "correct result", and people like me who favor free markets don't do so because we think they can produce any such thing. We favor free markets not because we think they are perfect, but because the alternatives are even worse.

The history of government regulation bears this out. Sure, when everything is going nicely, regulation looks good, and it's easy to talk about how a "free market" (which actually just means "if this particular regulation were to suddenly go away without anything else changing", which is a straw man) would be worse.

But the failure modes of government regulation are worse than those of a free market. The failure mode of a free market is that transactions that could create value don't happen--people don't fly because they can't get reliable information about aircraft safety, for example, so airlines go out of business and a lot of potentially valuable things can't happen because they would need air travel as an enabler. The failure mode of government regulation, as we've seen, is that people are killed out of the blue because the government they thought was protecting them, wasn't.

Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes you have to die to get back stronger. Ask the chinese.

I'm not sure that works for democracy. Autocracy is basically the default human state. All it takes to build it back up is a sufficiently powerful faction. Democracy is relatively fragile by comparison and requires more specific initial conditions - I would make the argument that democracies are the lower entropy condition.

Ask the Germans what happens when a democracy degenerates.

Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#229
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, medical research (NIH grants) is in preparation for going to war? Is the US planning on using biological agents?

Search story of Eco Health Alliance. It tells Usa based org got grant to research Coronaviruses. And outsourced research to China Wuhan.

> It tells Usa based org got grant to research Coronaviruses.

Yes, because coronaviruses are one of the largest and most common family of viruses, that cause everything from the common cold to SARS and MERS. Researching coronaviruses was important long before COVID-19.

Educating yourself is a good antidote to irrational conspiracy theories.

Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#230
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

States have autonomy on paper. In practice, it turns out otherwise.

States absolutely have autonomy. And not just on paper. And a lot of it is just in the amount of friction that the federal government can get. E.g. Trump sent ICE goons to MN and now he's embroiled in dozens of lawsuits because of that. Yes, he probably will win most of them eventually, but they all take time and energy. With a lot of negative PR along the way.

MN can't even give two murderers a fair trial because apparently Trump's goons can kill anyone they want, and then go scurry off like roaches.

If states had autonomy, those animals and their accomplices would be behind bars right now.

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