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LaGuardia pilots raised safety alarms months before deadly runway crash

theguardian.com

221–230 of 324 posts

Re: LaGuardia pilots raised safety alarms months before deadly runway crash

#221
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are describing a staffing shortage.

"Staffing shortage" doesn't mean "you can fit more people in the tower." You can't think of any scenario having one controller makes sense?

You can't think of any scenario having one controller makes sense?

At one of the nation's busiest airports? Where there are two intersecting runways, both potentially with departing and arriving aircraft? Nope.

But, sure, a single-runway regional airport can probably get by with a single controller.

Re: LaGuardia pilots raised safety alarms months before deadly runway crash

#222
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This isn't one guy's fault. Counterpoint. It's Regen's fault. He's the guy who decided that a high priority of the government was making sure air traffic controllers had no power to fight back against being horrifically overworked (because unions are evil you see)

You don't need a union to have effective management. It should also be their incentive not to cause people's death by overworking employees. Which is also dumb because it costs more to overwork then hire appropriately with overtime laws... cops exploit this all the time to steal money from taxpayers. (The ones in Seattle only get caught when they accidently charge over 24 hours of overtime in a day) Union rules that…

> It should also be their incentive

You can't just proclaim what incentives should be. We do have a mechanism for changing the incentives of management though: it's called unions.

Re: LaGuardia pilots raised safety alarms months before deadly runway crash

#223
To get an idea of the crazy workload some of these controllers are experiencing, the beginning of this video has an untrimmed 1-minute excerpt of ATC communications for Newark approach. Even the rest of the video, which has some editing, has no silences removed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKjBCEubtBI

Re: LaGuardia pilots raised safety alarms months before deadly runway crash

#224
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Liability" isn't really how we try to see things in aviation. While it's true that it's ultimately considered the responsibility of the truck/plane to visually confirm that crossing the runway is safe, refuse unsafe commands from ATC, and comply to the best of their ability when ATC says "stop" at the last second, we can't stop our analysis there if we want to prevent this from happening in the future, because unles…

I don't think the ATC is at fault here. If they were put in a difficult situation and responsible for too much at once, I'd view that as a leadership bug, not their personal fault (or anything they should be held liable for). The weak links imo here are the firetruck driver and whoever that ATC reports to directly (i.e., there shouldn't have been an opportunity for this to happen—that's an executive failure, whether…

The weak link is the system in place which puts so much work on so few staff.

The fire truck received the go ahead. They weigh 3x more than a normal firetruck. They're rushing to a different emergency. The plane is moving fast as hell. They can't just react instantaneously.

The ATC worker is clearly too stretched and such an incident was an inevitability. When they're shouting stop, they are no longer directly talking to the firetruck, which obscures the situation for everyone.

It is a terrible tragedy that will only be prevented with reform in staffing and safety procedures.

Re: LaGuardia pilots raised safety alarms months before deadly runway crash

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By using the role name rather than proper name, I'd hoped to spare HN from a tangent like this. My point doesn't rest on the nature of single individual, but instead applies to a human tendency. Politicians and press both play to the base impulses of a mass audience, unlike the NTSB. This is not the first time that a politician has scapegoated individuals when systemic failure occurs.

I actually can't remember or imagine another POTUS even getting to a level of specificity required to scapegoat an individual for something like this. The usual (and correct) answer is to say: "We don't know yet what happened, but there will be a full investigation and we will make the changes necessary to prevent it from happening again." Pretty easy! It doesn't serve us well to act like this administration is anyth…

Look, if you were to review my comment history you would have no doubt about where I stand on the current administration.

But scapegoating any single politician for the systemic problems of aviation is as unhelpful as scapegoating the controller for the crash at Laguardia.

Re: LaGuardia pilots raised safety alarms months before deadly runway crash

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it possible to automate the job of an ATC controller? At least partially? Or at least just as a sanity check on every human decision? Not saying I want human ATC controllers replaced, but if there’s a severe staff shortage, I feel like a computerized version is better than nothing at all.

In this specific incident, there was a system in place called Runway Entrance Lights [0] that does serve as an automated sanity check on controllers commands. The surveillance video that is circulating shows that the system was working and indicated that the runway was not safe to enter. It's not clear yet why the truck entered the runway anyway. 0: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/rwsl

The REILs are part of ARFF training. Pilot training on it is also clear. The system is automated. It plots the direction and speed of anything approaching the runway and predicts a conflict. If the REILs are red it is HIGHLY likely there is a conflict that is missed by human error and you should not proceed without confirming. Don't just confirm cleared to cross, explicitly tell the controller "XYZ tower we have red runway entrance lights. Please confirm runway XX is clear".

The system is smart enough that if you get red bars to cross for an airplane departing once it passes your position the red clears because it knows the airplane is already past you. It is not dumb - it was deliberately designed to minimize false positives so everyone would trust it otherwise they might ignore it when it really counts. (AFAIK it very accurate in fact so the firetrucks weren't crossing because they distrusted the red lights).

This is just like all aviation incidents and indeed most incidents of any kind: the holes in the swiss cheese lined up.

The emergency aircraft couldn't find a free gate, creating a massive distraction for ATC, airport, et al. This is probably the primary domino that started the sequence. Had a gate been free this incident would not have happened. One big hole lined up.

Normally the aircraft would visually see the truck or the truck would visually see the airplane. But it was dark and rainy. Another hole lined up.

Everyone involved was rushing because noise abatement requires the airport to close at a certain hour. Thus everyone wanted to take-off or land before that shutdown. Another hole.

Normally the controller wouldn't issue the clearance to cross or their supervisor monitoring behind them would notice the error and override. But the controller and/or supervisor were distracted by the emergency. Another hole lined up.

The controller realized the error and issued a stop command but the fire truck proceeded anyway; they may or may not have heard the transmission. Another hole lined up.

Then someone else decided to jump on frequency during this busy time (we don't know who just yet) which may have prevented the controller's stop and/or go-around commands from being heard (another hole lined up).

The ARFF crew did not obey the REILs, accepting the clearance. Perhaps they thought the red lights were due to aircraft on short final and they still had time to cross? Perhaps it was some other misunderstanding of how that system works. Another hole lines up.

And the Air Canada jet was not paying attention to the chaos on frequency. There's a reason runway crossings are typically done on tower frequency: so aircraft can hear what is going on. But it was late at night and their brains probably didn't process what was happening. Or they were too close to touching down to have the bandwidth. Another hole lined up.

Re: LaGuardia pilots raised safety alarms months before deadly runway crash

#227
No expert here, low-time GA decades ago. I regard these incidents as aspects of the universal race to the economic bottom.

The workloads are too high. Nobody running life-critical operations should be working 60+ hour weeks and overnight shifts. We've known for decades how these practices increase errors. One effective answer is to dilute the workload by hiring more people. But this slows the race to lower costs, so it isn't done. We need to spend more on people.

Re: LaGuardia pilots raised safety alarms months before deadly runway crash

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not arguing with the regulations, just pointing out that based on airport diagram[1], since the truck was crossing rwy on taxiway D, the CRJ was on the right approaching from behind. I have never been inside an airport firetruck, but I guess from the driver's seat the jet would be quite hard to see in this case. [1] https://www.avherald.com/h?article=536bb98e

Visibility was bad (night and mist) too. But if your truck has blind spots and vis is poor, you shouldn't be driving as fast if at all.

He was stopped until he received instructions to cross the runway from the person whose job it is to sit in a position with good visibility and tell people when they can cross runways. He wasn’t driving fast at all. The whole system is set up so that vehicles with blind spots (every large passenger jet) can safely move.

We can’t say that emergency vehicles should just stay in on dark and stormy nights.

Re: LaGuardia pilots raised safety alarms months before deadly runway crash

#229
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: > The crash has raised fears that operations at US airports are under extreme stress. Airports have been dealing with a shortage of air traffic controllers, exacerbated by brutal federal government personnel cuts by Donald Trump’s administration at the start of his second presidency. Not my opinion, just reading from there.

So where there budget cuts or not? That was the claim. I have yet to find anything that suggests there were budget cuts, just vague mentions of "brutal federal government personnel cuts". I'm just looking for: budget was X in Y

Analyze staffing, not budget. That gets more directly at workload.

Re: LaGuardia pilots raised safety alarms months before deadly runway crash

#230
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The controller was talking to Frontier plane when he first said stop, then said stopstopTruck1stopstopstop and it would be easy for there to be a gap in processing for the driver of truck 1 because the verbiage all flowed in the same stanza that was started when addressing the Frontier flight.

Every other truck in the column immediately stopped when the call was made. Truck 1 was the only one that didn't.

They were all, including truck 1, queued up at the stop line waiting for clearance to cross. Truck 1 received clearance to cross, he began crossing, then received instructions to stop after it was too late.

The rest of the emergency vehicles were stopped because they hadn’t been authorized. Truck 1 started moving because he had received specific instructions to do exactly what he was doing.

I take it you’re not a pilot, controller or someone who has ever worked an aviation radio?

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