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My insulin pump controller uses the Linux kernel. It also violates the GPL

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Re: My insulin pump controller uses the Linux kernel. It also violates the GPL

#221

Post by jacquesm »

rkomorn wrote: post #218
jacquesm wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of these have anything to do with your average diabetic loop hacker. You are comparing people that live for the thrills with people that are just trying to live.

They're also people who had a lot of confidence in their own skills (including thinking they knew better than others) and ended up being wrong. I would say that can have a lot to do with your average diabetic loop hacker.

I'd like some proof that the embedded programmers working for 'the man' at medical device companies are better and more motivated than those that are hacking on loop devices.

You're comparing people with a death wish in disguise with people that are extremely motivated to improve the QOL and they're very careful about how they do this, in fact if you read up on this you'd notice the insane attention to detail and the very rigorous process, on par with what I've seen in industry and in fact probably better than most.

All of this talk in this thread makes me think back to a time when people were laughing at that Finnish kid that was making his own OS with his buddies. Surely nobody would ever trust their business, their property or the lives to open source.

I checked and this is actually hacker news, not the BSA.

Re: My insulin pump controller uses the Linux kernel. It also violates the GPL

#222

Post by rkomorn »

jacquesm wrote: post #221
rkomorn wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're also people who had a lot of confidence in their own skills (including thinking they knew better than others) and ended up being wrong. I would say that can have a lot to do with your average diabetic loop hacker.

I'd like some proof that the embedded programmers working for 'the man' at medical device companies are better and more motivated than those that are hacking on loop devices. You're comparing people with a death wish in disguise with people that are extremely motivated to improve the QOL and they're very careful about how they do this, in fact if you read up on this you'd notice the insane attention to detail and the…

I'm arguing that "it's their life, so they'll be more careful than 'the man'" is tenuous.

There have been many people who "made informed decisions" about their medical treatments over the advice of professionals and ended up being wrong. They don't count as thrill seekers.

Even in other threads on HN, you'll find takes on this topic ranging from "I don't trust my device, so I do finger tests every day" to "I trust my vibes and my device and don't do finger tests anymore" which tells me there's a pretty wide spectrum along which hackers might fall.

I'm not at all arguing that it's impossible that someone would do a good job of hacking their device, let alone do better than pharma/med companies.

I just don't buy that everyone who hacks away at it will inherently do a better than said companies because their life is at stake. There are way too many examples of people taking their lives in their own hands and getting it wrong.

Re: My insulin pump controller uses the Linux kernel. It also violates the GPL

#223

Post by sarusso »

ijustlovemath wrote: post #157
sarusso wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The communication between your phone/pump or glucose sensor/pump is encrypted now for all newer devices. May I ask where did you get this info? And what “newer” means here?

This person is referring to this guidance document: https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/digital-health-center-ex... I'm a medical device developer working on this exact problem (glucose control)

Thanks!

Re: My insulin pump controller uses the Linux kernel. It also violates the GPL

#224

Post by mindslight »

amrocha wrote: post #207
habinero wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the original poster, but that was snark and not meant literally. Also, building your own plane is absolutely worse, even if you do have expert-level knowledge. That's true for any complex design. Aircraft design, material sourcing, fabrication, assembly and quality control are all very different skill sets, but the real kicker is experience. The reason why commercial aircraft are so safe is a lot of work goes int…

Nope, not snark. You can’t believe that you’re better than everyone else and everyone else is incompetent and still function in society. If you do then you probably have an undiagnosed mental illness.

The problem is that the system incentivizes incompetence. The mechanics who are paid a skilled wage, take their time, and double check to make sure they are not missing anything show up as big red problems on the beancounters' spreadsheets and get optimized away.

The system can make up for this in other ways like repeatability of processes, redundancy, etc. Which is why commercial aviation is safer than general aviation, and also why I specifically worded my comment as being about the same model of plane - ie if instead of building your own experimental-class kit plane, you hired it out to a liability-limiting company hiring minimum-wage workers to follow the directions. I'm guessing such a thing is illegal per FAA regs, but that kind of proves my point.

For another example, have you experienced the medical system lately? Doctors are generally smart people, but that intelligence is squandered by having their attention smashed into 10 minute chunks, with the entire rest of the system revolving around blame passing - the end result is a lot of smart and well-meaning people ending up grossly incompetent through emergent effects. I would much rather be able to go to a doctor and trust whatever answers they gave me rather than having to do my own independent research and advocacy to drive the process. But that is not how the system we have works.

Re: My insulin pump controller uses the Linux kernel. It also violates the GPL

#225

Post by [deleted] »

AdelaideSimone wrote: post #211
teddyh wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. Who can and cannot sue is irrelevant to my point. But I seriously doubt that anyone can sue for source code . Someone might sue for damages, and the company might offer to settle by offering source code. But IIUC, no company can be sued and forced to give up any source code, unless the company itself chooses to do this instead of paying damages.

I don't know how easy it is in Germany compared to the U S., but this is false. In the U.S., you absolute can sue (and it is extremely common) to force certain actions. See: constructive trust, mandatory injunction, prohibitive injunction, specific performance, recission, writ. In all likelihood, you would not receive the source code in the U.S., though. If deadset against release, the outcome would likely be that th…

[deleted]

Re: My insulin pump controller uses the Linux kernel. It also violates the GPL

#226

Post by Group_B »

duban wrote: post #13
Group_B wrote: post #8

Oh well. The whole thing has already been reverse engineered. Look up Loop or Trio or OpenAPS. Diabetic companies like Insulet have been very lax when it’s come to the hacking of their devices. This isn’t really that big a deal. What we need right now is help REing the Omnipod 5

I’m aware of a few people working on REing the Omnipod 5. The furthest issue that I have seen is that when a PDM/Omnipod 5 app signs into your insulet id, it gets a private key from the API which is stored in the keychain (and uses SSL pinning to prevent MiTM retrieval of the private key). When pairing with the pod they exchange public keys and then a derived key from the devices private key+pods public keys, but hav…

Anyway to follow the progress? I attended the Nightscout conference and asked around regarding this but no one really knew of any group to follow. Or really knew of the latest developments on this effort.

Re: My insulin pump controller uses the Linux kernel. It also violates the GPL

#227

Post by AnthonyMouse »

amrocha wrote: post #206
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Definitely not the untested code I wrote myself! Nobody said it was untested. > How many times have you unwillingly introduced bugs into a code base you didn’t fully understand? That’s basically table stakes for software engineering. Which applies just the same to the people the company hired to do it, and now we're back to "the people with a stronger incentive to get it right are the people who die if it goes wron…

I can’t tell if you seriously think a random person writing code in their basement is equivalent to a company that has access to API docs, design specs, actual test hardware, the expertise of a ton of engineers that have worked on the project and understand how it can go wrong, not to mention all the regulations and verifications they’re subject to. But if you do then wow. That really puts in perspective the kind of…

> I can’t tell if you seriously think a random person writing code in their basement is equivalent to a company that has access to API docs, design specs

Are you saying not having those things is dangerous? They should be required to publish all of that for safety-critical devices then.

> actual test hardware

Why would arbitrary people be unable to buy test hardware? Again something to be addressed if true rather than used as an excuse.

> the expertise of a ton of engineers that have worked on the project and understand how it can go wrong

Do they not have internet access? If they don't even work for the company anymore then that could be the only way to access that information.

Literally something which is happening on the linked Reddit page.

> not to mention all the regulations and verifications they’re subject to.

Regulations are for preventing someone else from harming you. You don't need a government incentive to protect you from yourself, you already come with that incentive.

Re: My insulin pump controller uses the Linux kernel. It also violates the GPL

#228

Post by jacquesm »

rkomorn wrote: post #222
jacquesm wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like some proof that the embedded programmers working for 'the man' at medical device companies are better and more motivated than those that are hacking on loop devices. You're comparing people with a death wish in disguise with people that are extremely motivated to improve the QOL and they're very careful about how they do this, in fact if you read up on this you'd notice the insane attention to detail and the…

I'm arguing that "it's their life, so they'll be more careful than 'the man'" is tenuous. There have been many people who "made informed decisions" about their medical treatments over the advice of professionals and ended up being wrong. They don't count as thrill seekers. Even in other threads on HN, you'll find takes on this topic ranging from "I don't trust my device, so I do finger tests every day" to "I trust my…

Well, in this case the proof is there for your perusal: it works. They have ironed out most if not all of the kinks and manufacturers are pissed that they got shown up by a bunch of people who they consider to be subjects, not having agency. Because after all, if a bunch of ordinary but skilled people can do this their justification for obscene pricing all but evaporates.

I look at these companies for a living. Every two weeks on average another one. I see their codebases. I interview their engineers. There is no magic sauce. It is rare that you come across a company that really gets engineering and that doesn't see the product as a minor obstacle on the way to profits. Medical device companies in general are not exceptional in this sense (though I am aware of one that is).

But fine, you think that the people that work for these companies are somehow better than that ones whose lives are at stake. I beg to differ.

Re: My insulin pump controller uses the Linux kernel. It also violates the GPL

#229

Post by jacquesm »

hurfdurf wrote: post #199
jacquesm wrote: post #19

Let me guess. Omnipod. They've had some pretty bad recalls too. Never in a lifetime would I trust my well-being to their p.o.s. hardware / software combo. Apologies that person in this thread that worked there, but I hope you are working for a better company now.

Don't need to guess, the company name is mentioned in the second line of the linked posting.

My point is: they could have left it out. There are not that many manufacturers of insulin pumps and there is only one that the title could have conceivably applied to.

Re: My insulin pump controller uses the Linux kernel. It also violates the GPL

#230

Post by rkomorn »

jacquesm wrote: post #228
rkomorn wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm arguing that "it's their life, so they'll be more careful than 'the man'" is tenuous. There have been many people who "made informed decisions" about their medical treatments over the advice of professionals and ended up being wrong. They don't count as thrill seekers. Even in other threads on HN, you'll find takes on this topic ranging from "I don't trust my device, so I do finger tests every day" to "I trust my…

Well, in this case the proof is there for your perusal: it works. They have ironed out most if not all of the kinks and manufacturers are pissed that they got shown up by a bunch of people who they consider to be subjects, not having agency. Because after all, if a bunch of ordinary but skilled people can do this their justification for obscene pricing all but evaporates. I look at these companies for a living. Every…

> But fine, you think that the people that work for these companies are somehow better than that ones whose lives are at stake.

That is not the point I'm making.

The point I'm making is that someone's life being at stake does not inherently make then better.

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