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My insulin pump controller uses the Linux kernel. It also violates the GPL

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Re: My insulin pump controller uses the Linux kernel. It also violates the GPL

#141

Post by AnthonyMouse »

amrocha wrote: post #138
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You, an engineer at a major aircraft manufacturer that isn't Boeing, have been working after hours with some of your colleagues on a hobby project to add some modern safety features to an older model of small private plane, because you regard it as unsafe even though it still has a government certification and you got into this field because you want to save lives. Your "prototype" is a plane from the original manufa…

Definitely not the untested code I wrote myself! Are you kidding me? How many times have you unwillingly introduced bugs into a code base you didn’t fully understand? That’s basically table stakes for software engineering.

> Definitely not the untested code I wrote myself!

Nobody said it was untested.

> How many times have you unwillingly introduced bugs into a code base you didn’t fully understand? That’s basically table stakes for software engineering.

Which applies just the same to the people the company hired to do it, and now we're back to "the people with a stronger incentive to get it right are the people who die if it goes wrong".

Re: My insulin pump controller uses the Linux kernel. It also violates the GPL

#142

Post by billforsternz »

I recall idly looking through the manual of our Bosch dishwasher when it was delivered and seeing that they offered to share GPL'ed source code from the machine's embedded guts. I thought to myself, "that's kind of interesting, I'll take them up on that". So I emailed the address they provided for this purpose. I got an auto email back saying, effectively, "No. You're not an authorised person, we don't recognise your email address, we don't know who you are, we're not going to talk to you."

Oh well. Big Corp doing what Big Corps do. Paying lip service to legal requirements, but reluctantly and with barriers that would no doubt take a lot of time and money to even try and break down.

Re: My insulin pump controller uses the Linux kernel. It also violates the GPL

#143

Post by socalgal2 »

jacquesm wrote: post #83
schmuckonwheels wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This got buried on HN a few days ago which is a shame: https://social.kernel.org/notice/B1aR6QFuzksLVSyBZQ Linus rants that the SFC is wrong and argues that the GPLv2 which the kernel is licensed under does NOT force you to open your hardware. The spirit of the GPLv2 was about contributing software improvements back to the community. Which brings us to the question: what is this guy going to do with (presumably) the…

There are a lot of people hacking on insulin pumps and they are lightyears ahead of commerce. If you want a very interesting rabbit hole to dive into try 'artificial pancreas hacking' as google feed. One interesting link: https://www.drugtopics.com/view/hacking-diabetes-the-diy-bio... I would trust the people that hack on these systems to be even more motivated than the manufacturers to make sure they don't fuck up,…

> I would trust the people that hack on these systems to be even more motivated than the manufacturers to make sure they don't fuck up

I would think it's the opposite. People that hack on this only risk their own life. Companies risk many people's lives and will get sued. Of course the person doing the hacking doesn't want to die but they're also willing to take the risk.

Re: My insulin pump controller uses the Linux kernel. It also violates the GPL

#144

Post by mindslight »

amrocha wrote: post #139
mindslight wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flying in a plane you built yourself is likely safer than flying in the same model of plane built by a company that assembled it for you using lowest-bid labor while making you sign a twenty page lawyer barf disclaiming liability.

You can’t honestly believe that or you wouldn’t be able to function in society.

My comment rests on the fact that the types of planes you can build yourself are completely different models than the fully assembled models from the likes of Boeing etc. I do agree that a kit 737, if such a thing existed, would be less safe than one off the line.

Re: My insulin pump controller uses the Linux kernel. It also violates the GPL

#145

Post by waste_monk »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #140
verall wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somewhere deep in the legalese Alice agreed she would not do that, i.e. "non transferable license".

Isn't that the part that would violate the first sale doctrine?

I think the usual argument is that you don't own the digital good, you have a license to use it, and that license is between you and the originator (or their reseller) directly. And you aren't allowed to resell the license.

E.g. this sort of thing https://www.tomshardware.com/video-games/pc-gaming/steam-che...

Re: My insulin pump controller uses the Linux kernel. It also violates the GPL

#146

Post by wpm »

socalgal2 wrote: post #143
jacquesm wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of people hacking on insulin pumps and they are lightyears ahead of commerce. If you want a very interesting rabbit hole to dive into try 'artificial pancreas hacking' as google feed. One interesting link: https://www.drugtopics.com/view/hacking-diabetes-the-diy-bio... I would trust the people that hack on these systems to be even more motivated than the manufacturers to make sure they don't fuck up,…

> I would trust the people that hack on these systems to be even more motivated than the manufacturers to make sure they don't fuck up I would think it's the opposite. People that hack on this only risk their own life. Companies risk many people's lives and will get sued. Of course the person doing the hacking doesn't want to die but they're also willing to take the risk.

> People that hack on this only risk their own life.

Provided they do not risk anyone elses, that is entirely their right.

Re: My insulin pump controller uses the Linux kernel. It also violates the GPL

#147

Post by gpm »

mr_toad wrote: post #125
gpm wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's an appeal to the law, the doctrine of copyright exhaustion (also known as the first sale doctrine) dictates that copyright is exhausted upon the first sale of the device (i.e. to the distributor) and they have no rights to control or prevent further sales. That the GPL potentially fails to achieve what it intends to is neither a legal argument, nor particularly surprising.

> first sale doctrine) dictates that copyright is exhausted upon the first sale of the device (i.e. to the distributor). The copyright doesn’t go away when copies are sold to a distributor. Someone (probably the manufacturer) still has legal obligations to the copyright holder.

With regards to further distribution of the copy sold to the distributor, it does go away.

Re: My insulin pump controller uses the Linux kernel. It also violates the GPL

#148

Post by gpm »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #140
verall wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somewhere deep in the legalese Alice agreed she would not do that, i.e. "non transferable license".

Isn't that the part that would violate the first sale doctrine?

No, not if the same itself was unlawful because Alice signed a contract to not sell it like that.

The GPL notably allows for the sale, it was legal here.

Re: My insulin pump controller uses the Linux kernel. It also violates the GPL

#149

Post by phlummox »

teddyh wrote: post #17
jstanley wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that in the general case if you send someone a written offer for something and then don't honour it, you are in breach of contract? That doesn't sound right to me. A written offer is not the same thing as a contract.

Maybe it’s not technically “breach of contract”, and an offer might or might not be a contract. But if you don’t honor an offer you made, you must surely be guilty of something. Otherwise, all offers would be meaningless and worth nothing.

> you must surely be guilty of something. Otherwise, all offers would be meaningless and worth nothing.

You don't have to be "guilty" of anything to be liable in civil law (which contract law is a part of). "Guilt" is a concept from criminal law. It isn't required for contracts to be enforceable.

In general (there are exceptions) offers alone aren't enforceable and don't result in a contract. You need other elements (agreement by the parties, plus something done in return for what's offered) for a contract to be formed - and then it's enforceable.

Re: My insulin pump controller uses the Linux kernel. It also violates the GPL

#150

Post by [deleted] »

teddyh wrote: post #6

> I then decided to contact Insulet to get the kernel source code for it, being GPLv2 licensed, they're obligated to provide it. This is technically not true. It is an oversimplification of the common case, but what actually normally should happen is that: 1. The GPL requires the company to send the user a written offer of source code. 2. The user uses this offer to request the source code from the company. 3. If the…

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