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Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

bbc.com

221–230 of 465 posts

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#221
post #28

To offer a bit of context, the same government just voted to raise current pensions at the expense of steep taxation hikes for current workers, made massive cuts to social services, and is now discussing military service. This generation is rightfully feeling like they're getting a sore deal.

Exploiting the south via the imbalanced currency union doesn't work anymore now that their economies can't swallow more debts to buy German stuff, China and the USA are not buying anymore and decades of underinvestments have caught up. It wouldn't be surprising therefore to see the German government fall backs to the only trick they know: constraining wages and limiting consumption. If I was particularly cynical, I could even argue that this youth conscription is fundamentally yet another form of wage suppression but I genuinely think it's a political coup to please the old voters who want something done for defence, preferably with no impact to them and their savings and don't care at all about the young.

At least, the current government tried relaxing the debt brake a little and investing but I fear it's too little, too late. Germany is hooked to competitiveness shortcuts at the expense of their neighbors. The cure would be harsh. Add the quasi-religious adherence to a completely broken economic model turned into an absurd moral system and I personally have very little hope to ever see the situation improves. Then again, I have too moderate my cynicism. I thought for a long time that the eurozone creation, a currency union without transfers, was so stupid it would never be toppled as the worst political decision but then Germany passed the Schuldenbremse. They might manage to outdo themselves once again.

I'm convinced the status quo will prevail. The German public will prefer slow death to any kind of transfers and common investments. They have already blocked the interesting parts of the Draghi plan. Japanification here we come. Let's enjoy becoming Disneyland while we slowly lose any kind of international relevance. I mean at least there most likely will be catering to the elderly and maybe crafting luxury goods as an alternative to tourism. At least, our brightest should be able to leave to places where innovation still happen. Such an exciting future Karlsruhe is leading us to.

I'm just sad my country is tied to the sinking ship.

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#222
post #192

So many comments and sentiments in this thread are really not worthy of HN.

Your comment specifically, I believe, falls short of the ideal to get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic becomes more divisive.

We should probably avoid posting shallow dismissals and remember that a good critical comment teaches us something.

Additionally, as your comment leaves readers wondering which parts of the divided comment section you deem "worthy of HN" and which you do not, I cannot help but think of this ambivalence as a method to spark reactions. Another word for this method would be "to bait", I think.

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Even after Vietnam, in this century. Iraq war 2 was all false pretenses. And the resulting power vacuum created ISIS. Afghanistan accomplished absolutely nothing, things are back to the way it was and all the deaths were for nothing. The only fairly recent war that the west was involved in that was slightly justified was the first gulf war. But even that wasn't really any of America's business. It wasn't tha…

But do people think American will translate to Germany?

Germany took part in a lot of those wars.

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One, I'm not sure what American founding ideals have to do with Germany. Two, Germany, like most countries and frankly human populations, has a male surplus in its fighting-age population [1]. This is why, historically, large socities tended to wage war with men first. (Even those that e.g. held elite units in reserve, which undermines the usual biological argument.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_…

The male surplus is a few tens of thousands, way to small to make up an army; and no, that is not the reason why men and not women go to war.

The reason for war has always been to kill off young men, since they are disposable fertility wise and an internal threat to current holders of power. This has been the case since the stone age and will be the case until the end of time.

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#225
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You see, millions are already killed in the biggest war in Europe since WW2 and it looks like this is just the prelude. Russia is threatening to fight Europe as of yesterday, continue to increase weapon production and militarisation. It is obvious that it just cannot stop as its economy and social order is switching more and more to the war-time. China backs russia up and officially declaring that it cannot allow Rus…

You misunderstand. I'm not against reporting about Russia. The oversimplification of reducing everything down to "Putin this, Putin that" is my issue. Imagine me saying everything the EU is doing is explicitly because of Ursel. It's stupid, ignorant and reminds me of Trump Derangement Syndrome which had a similar effect on reporting about US issues. I live in Germany so I'm fucked either way. I'm also aware of NATO e…

> I'm also aware of NATO expansion until a point where Russia couldn't ignore it anymore.

Are you?

Tell us — for how long has NATO been on russia's border?

> You think Russia will attack Europe

No, we have observed that russia has already attacked Europe.

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#226
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and the question is who does the German state really target to enroll in their "new" army. Because "This generation" has a lot of clearly distinct groups. So it could be: - the native young population who are now flocking in the AfD - the people fighting the AfD in the street - the second generation immigrants born there - the very recent immigrants - a mix of all Because the alchemy of creating a working army an…

I'm in the "recent" immigrants group. I qualify for citizenship since a few years, but this Wehrpflicht nonsense is why I haven't sent my application yet. I don't think that the social situation is as bad as you describe. I just think that people generally don't feel keen to put their life on the line for Germany.

> I qualify for citizenship since a few years, but this Wehrpflicht nonsense is why I haven't sent my application yet.

First world problems...

You will always be able to object military service, it's not difficult at all and absolutely won't be any time soon. I have a hard time imagining you to be forced to do alternative service. In case of actual war, when mobilization becomes a reality, well... your origin country will likely be involved too.

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#227
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I didn't see were any young Germans Seems ~20% of the population are immigrants ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg#Demographics ), some of the people you saw are Germans and some of them are not, but I think the main confusing part is how you mix up how someone looks and what nationality they have. I think maybe you're trying to say "white" instead, but for some reason avoided using that word?

> I think maybe you're trying to say "white" instead Not sure what you are babbling about but, It's about ethnicity and not race. Plenty of third generation Turks still don't consider themselves German, then someone with black skin adopted as a child might consider themself German, it's about culture not race, we're not in last century anymore. Proportion of young people with immigrant background is high in many West…

> Plenty of third generation Turks still don't consider themselves German, then someone with black skin adopted as a child might consider themself German

You seem to exactly know what I'm babbling about. Parent commentator somehow confused "looks like" for "is citizen of", something you seem to grasp perfectly well.

For all we know, 100% of the people the parent saw were actually "Young Germans", as you cannot tell people's nationality by just looking at them. Unless of course, "Young Germans" is actually referring to something else, not people's nationality.

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#228
post #28

To offer a bit of context, the same government just voted to raise current pensions at the expense of steep taxation hikes for current workers, made massive cuts to social services, and is now discussing military service. This generation is rightfully feeling like they're getting a sore deal.

Yes and the question is who does the German state really target to enroll in their "new" army. Because "This generation" has a lot of clearly distinct groups. So it could be: - the native young population who are now flocking in the AfD - the people fighting the AfD in the street - the second generation immigrants born there - the very recent immigrants - a mix of all Because the alchemy of creating a working army an…

I would assume it will mostly be youths from the former GDR, which is extremely visible on economic maps, for instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_states_by_GRDP_...

Former East Germany is lit up in red, similar to how you could see the old borders on night satellite photos from the color temperature of the outdoor lights in West and East Germany, which was most easily noticed in Berlin (article has a picture from 2012): https://kottke.org/19/11/the-berlin-wall-of-light

The outdoor lights will eventually all be LED, which will erase the old border from the night skies.

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#229

“The form will be mandatory for men and voluntary for women.” This is highly misandrist. I can’t believe that we are in 2025 and a - so called - democratic government is still denying women the opportunity to potentially go and die miserably in the front lines on equal footing with men. We can surely do better. Women and girls deserve more.

Including women in this does have the additional hurdle that a constitutional amendment would be needed, which is less likely to pass, regardless of the merits.

Re: Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

#230

> "We don't want to spend half a year of our lives locked up in barracks, being trained in drill and obedience and learning to kill," the organisers of the protests wrote in a statement posted on social media. "War offers no prospects for the future and destroys our livelihoods." Is the idea that it’s better for your livelihood to just start learning how speak Russian now?

I think a lot of young people look at all of the wars waged post-WWII and are rightfully opposed to fighting for their governments. Would you want to die for nothing in Vietnam? Probably not, and a lot of other people didn't want to as well. Some of them did anyway, and it was all for nothing. So please have some grace if today's kids have looked back at our miserable history and have decided that they'd rather not d…

An attempt at mind reading to market an opinion
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