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End of Japanese community

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Re: End of Japanese community

#221

Post by reddalo »

rendaw wrote: post #194
jahsome wrote: post #10

I'm not really able to understand the finer details but I think I picked up enough to get the broad strokes. Really though, all I needed to see was the phrase "jump on a quick call" to form an irrationally strong opinion. That phrase instantly warms my entire body with rage.

It wasn't mentioned in other replies, but "jump on a quick call" also means very strongly "let's move to a place with no public record and private participation where nobody else can join in". Then later, if it comes up again, they can just say "well we discussed this in a call previously and decided it was best to do it anyway" cutting off discussion and not presenting the reasoning.

Exactly, never accept a switch to a private place when you're trying to gather attention on public matters. It could and it will be used against you later on.

Re: End of Japanese community

#222

Post by reddalo »

thomassmith65 wrote: post #214
yigalirani wrote: post #209

If i was this guy, i would take all the translations and move them to his own independent site with proper promotion so that Japanese speaker can find it easily

I'd just begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure: https://ladybird.org/#gi

I'm happy that somebody is trying to create a new browser -- even though some people say it's impossible nowadays.

But FUTO sponsoring that project gives bad vibes.

Re: End of Japanese community

#223

Post by ajb »

crazygringo wrote: post #106
rtpg wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. - No apology - No "we stopped the bot for now" "We're sorry for how you feel" is enterprise for "we think you're whining". Maybe not what the person meant but ho…

> - No apology - No "we stopped the bot for now" "We're sorry for how you feel" is enterprise for "we think you're whining". Anyways the point is just that one side of this relationship here clearly cares about the problem way less, and _even when presented with that fact_, does not even pretend to be actually sorry for the damage they are causing. This is just a single initial reply from a "community support manager…

They are the person who announced the bot would be rolled out. If the person who announced the rollout isn't either the leader of the project or someone who can push for changes to it, then that's already totally against the community.

Second, this "community support forum" isn't just a corporate help desk. It's a forum for community supporters of Mozilla, an open source organisation for which community contributions are hugely important. Mozilla can't just fuck over parts of it's community and expect that to be business as usual.

Re: End of Japanese community

#224

Post by a13n »

small_scombrus wrote: post #217
Stranger43 wrote: post #169

I think a fundamental lack of understanding/humility is the core of this conflict along with Mozilla's long and storied history of creating controversies/problems out of thin air. The Mozilla leadership seems to have a unfortunate tendency to emulate the behaviors of the tech companies that their core Firefox project is often seen as an alternative too. Firefox is a good browser but is prevented from capitalizing on…

I'm always surprised that stuff like the AI integration isn't done as a pre-installed extension. If it's Mozilla signed then you could give it extra permissions so it still works the same, but then people who it offends can remove it. Like how their tab containers system is a (not pre-installed) extension

ehh this reads a bit like the hn comments complaining about sites that don’t work with js disabled

like what percent of firefox users do you think actually care about this?

Re: End of Japanese community

#225

Post by ChadNauseam »

roncesvalles wrote: post #130
crazygringo wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? It seems like someone who has no awareness of the problem, who wants to learn more about the problem, and the fastest way for both parties is over the phone ASAP rather than through a bunch of emails. When software goes wrong, you need as much information as possible to figure it how to fix it.

"quick call?" in corporatespeak means "I believe our disagreement to be a minor misunderstanding that can be clarified in a few minutes of conversation" In a company you should never ever "quick call" someone (especially on a group forum) who has presented a genuine list of grievances against whatever you're doing, unless you're subtly trying to pull rank to override those grievances.

He didn't say "quick call". Here is what he said:

> Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with.

Re: End of Japanese community

#226

Post by ChadNauseam »

numpad0 wrote: post #182
jameson wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> struggles with Japanese It doesn't mention mistranslating, so it's difficult to know the root of the problem is AI "struggling". > It doesn't follow our translation guidelines. > It doesn't respect current localization for Japanese users, so they were lost. I believe this is the root of the problem. There are define processes and guidelines, and LLM isn't following it. Whether these guidelines were prompted or not…

That's not the root of the problem. The root of the problem is that LLMs just can't constitute a punctually Japanese understanding of text like that guideline and speak in Japanese with native fluency no matter what. I just know this from knowing both sides of English-Japanese language pair. And I find that somewhat fascinating in a sense.

Wow. That's crazy. I would be very interested in a blog post on this subject if you ever wrote one. I wonder how this affects the perception of LLMs in Japan

Re: End of Japanese community

#227

Post by imp0cat »

gyomu wrote: post #18

As a multilingual/multicultural human it’s been pretty weird witnessing what AI translation has been doing to regional languages & cultures on the internet in the last few years. Sure we had machine translation before, but it was still a little off. Now the latest language models get us 99.9% there, so they are judged good enough to deploy at scale. What results is a weird twilight zone where everything is in your la…

    You’re in France, you search for something, a thread pops up with everyone interacting in French - seems reasonable enough, but it just reads kind of weird? Then a message is entirely out of place, and you realize that you’re reading an English language thread translated to French.
There should be a word for this. Most of these translations feel so weird.

Re: End of Japanese community

#228

Post by vintermann »

jwpapi wrote: post #40
kaveh_h wrote: post #17

Some people do these type of contribution or charity work not just to do some good but also to feel some autonomy and mastery in a world were much of the regular top down driven drudgery work does not provide much of that feeling. These people are canaries in the coal mine. I expect more people feel a loss of purpose and rise of anxiety and depression in the world.

Yeah I’m not even sure it’s easy to decide which side is in the right here and it’s not as simple as people think it is. Mozilla is painted bad here, but who knows if the automated translations do not help more people than it hurts the translators. What if the reduced financial pressure allows Mozilla to focus more on privacy and less on ads. Unfortunately these things are really gray, but you really can’t expect a c…

Who knows?

Everyone whose native language is not English knows. Seriously, people with this attitude should be forced to run their browser and mail client with a plugin to run everything through a couple of machine translation roundtrips. Give it two months, and I guarantee you'll understand.

Re: End of Japanese community

#229

Post by rand17 »

I call this the AI theater. If a company can (still) look good AND decrease dealing with pesky flesh and bone humans, that's not collateral, that's a win. On the surface you act caring, concerned, rendering investors and HR both happy while you decrease "human complexity" - then you are winning the AI game. Mozilla always wanted to join the big boys, but while yearning for their soft power status the yearn bore the fruits of a rotten soul they will also have to embrace. There is no light without shadows and AI's shadows are drawn long and deep.

Re: End of Japanese community

#230

Post by lancebeet »

a13n wrote: post #224
small_scombrus wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always surprised that stuff like the AI integration isn't done as a pre-installed extension. If it's Mozilla signed then you could give it extra permissions so it still works the same, but then people who it offends can remove it. Like how their tab containers system is a (not pre-installed) extension

ehh this reads a bit like the hn comments complaining about sites that don’t work with js disabled like what percent of firefox users do you think actually care about this?

Given the abysmal market share of Firefox today I think a large percentage of the remaining users do actually care.
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