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Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

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Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#221
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's option 3, and that's: don't say anything, strike some passages and sign it. Whether that's a good idea, that depends on the circumstances but I'm just noting it as an option.

> strike some passages and sign it Oh my god: This is utter nonsense. They weren't kidding when they said don't take legal advice from randos on the InterWebs. Most companies outsource their employment contract authoring to an external law firm, then have (internal) senior HR go over your signed copy with a fine-toothed comb to catch exactly these kinds of "tricks". If your company is that stupid to allow it, then yo…

That’s not really a trick. It’s how contract law has worked for years.

Of course, doing it without telling the new employer is a great way to get an offer rescinded.

Also, if you modify it after the other side signed, then you’ll want them to initial the changes.

If you modified it, then they signed without noticing the modifications, then I guess ask a lawyer.

I don’t see what outsourcing has to do with it. If they have power of attorney to an external HR firm, that seems like their problem. (I’ve never encountered a company dumb enough to do that though.)

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#223

So happy my union managed to ban broad non-competes in my country ~8 years ago. Now it needs to be very specific if they want to enforce it (not just "development work in the same industry" which most contracts had back when I graduated), only applicable for maximum a year, and they have to pay your salary for the time they stop you working somewhere else.

What about health insurance?

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#224
post #45

I think the Chinese law is effective in this regard: in order to maintain any non-competition agreement, the company must continue to pay you a monthly compensation amount equal to 30% of your total monthly income when you were at the company. Whenever the payment stops, the non-competition agreement is automatically void.

Speaking of China:

The free movement of workers is important to having an efficient economy. The US could do a lot better here; we have bad safety nets, non-competes, "trade-secrets".

When workers move freely and spread trade-secrets, this results in all companies performing better, on average. This is good for everyone except the lazy owners who would lose money to those who perform better.

While the US worries about limiting the free movement of workers, non-competes, and "trade-secrets", China is going to build approximately a billion homes and factories.

If we take the "free" out of "free market", then we're just a market, and far from the most efficient one.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#225
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's worse is actually those non-competes with a variable period. The company doesn't have to tell you in advance how long it will be; only when you hand in your resignation letter will they tell you. It entirely serves to make your job hunt more difficult.

Jesus: What jurisdiction is this? And what dummy signs a contract like that?

New York and the company in question is none other than Citadel.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#226

OTOH, beware letting yourself be intimidated by scary looking but unenforcable clauses that are all over contracts. In doubt, spend a bit of money on a lawyer to figure out what your real situation is. I know of several cases where lawyers said "don't bother arguing with them about clause X, just sign it and ignore it".

What are the keywords for finding a lawyer who can advise on non-competes? Asking because it turned out nearly impossible to find a local lawyer to advise on a dispute couple months ago - with 9 out of 10 telling me they only do divorces or real estate or immigration. I was literally calling one by one from a list based on what I believe were relevant search criteria on State Bar website.

> What are the keywords for finding a lawyer who can advise on non-competes?

If you're in California, try the following; they all know their stuff and aren't in supercostly BigLaw firms (although I think most are BigLaw alumni):

- Betsy Bayha - https://www.linkedin.com/in/betsy-bayha-560107/

- George Grellas - used to post here a lot, not so much recently - https://grellas.com/our-team/george-grellas/

- Sean Hogle - https://www.linkedin.com/in/epiclaw/

- Kyle Mitchell - https://kemitchell.com/

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re an employee under NDA, and your company considers almost everything about your work to be confidential, you can’t effectively paint a detailed picture for the role. The NDA gives them some protection to answer your questions openly and transparently.

You had to know your response would get no love here on HN. You seem to be missing the point that this is like a free option for the interviewing company. Did they offer to compensate this person... say 1000 USD per hour to interview? I doubt it. As a result, the person signing this NDA has 100% of the downside, with no upsides except a "potentially lucrative job offer". That seems like a wildly unequal offer.

You know, in moments like these, you have an opportunity to build a connection — to meet someone in the middle who sees the world a little differently, who is perhaps indoctrinated into a disrespectful aspect of capitalism and is unable to see through it yet, or who perhaps offers a perspective you don’t have yourself.

And you slam dunk any chance of connection for what seems to be the sake of argument and posture. All because of a difference in opinion? Because you have the mighty all-seeing eyes of an objective opinion we should all see through too?

I “had” to know my response would get no love? The only mistake I made here is my continued thought that this was a place for some kind of industry togetherness: It is just a constant stepping over each other for no apparent reason than to satisfy a kind of unfulfilled ego.

I wasn’t concerned with how much you would love my response. I didn’t cater it for you. You are not the only person in my god damn universe. It was meant to be my authentic perspective, to be helpful, or to invite conversation and debate if I missed another perspective unhad.

But with responses like these, gosh, why bother? What a waste of my love.

I think the argument you made is just an entirely different one. The inequality in your argument is basically whether you should be compensated for interviewing with a company — which, I don’t know what’s economically fair there and I’m not making an argument about. I’d love to be paid to interview :) I don’t know the economic impact of it though. I wonder if it would just lead to more selective hiring practices and worser mutual fits.

Requesting payment for just the NDA is weird to me. Without something like this, you’re asking the company to provide detailed specifics of the role you’re interviewing for, but you won’t give them any legal peace that you won’t run away with the secrets you learn: It’s a free and permitted distribution of anything your interviewers go and share with candidates.

It leads to interviews where you have no idea what the role actually is and what you’ll be doing on the job. Every question stonewalled with a generic answer so the employee doesn’t get in trouble. An atmosphere of curation and inauthenticity, to gauge how you will potentially spend years of your life.

Lovely.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's funny. Some NDAs I've signed prohibit you from mentioning any contact with the company involved (thus you're not allowed to mention the NDA) so my answer would be; "Under the terms of NDAs I have signed I am not free to disclose that list."

Couldn't the employer convert that into a filter?

I'm not sure I'm understanding your point. Can you elaborate?

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shockley -> Fairchild -> Intel, AMD couldn't have happened with non-compete. So Silicon Valley couldn't have happened in Washington. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traitorous_eight Per capita isn't a good measure here, as Washington's weather helps lower the denominator (I say this as a former Seattle resident)

Seattles weather does nothing to lower the denominator. The PNW is rainy and somewhat cold, but not cold enough to kill homeless on the street in large numbers which is what folks seem to think lowers the denominator. And yes I do live in the PNW.

[deleted]

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it's not "for life". It's until they feel free to lift the non-compete. My guess is that most information you take from a company is irrelevant in a couple years. Maybe 5 tops? Plus it'd almost certainly end with zero notice. You'd get a email saying "you're free to go". Suddenly. After say 26 months. So it's not like a "pension for life" - just a gap in your employment history.

Oh no, ah jeez, slightly more than one year of income for zero effort, darn. Any employment gap can be easily explained by saying "I was under a non-compete and being paid garden leave while working on personal projects to keep my skills fresh". It's very common in e.g. the finance world, I believe.

I've no argument with the severance cash, I'm saying that you can't just revert to a hobby because you have an "income for life."

The uncertainty means you're still out on the job market looking for a real job.

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