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Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

thecodist.com

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Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#221

Post by jacquesm »

klipt wrote: post #213
grellas wrote: post #48

The U.S. has a strong free enterprise foundation and its laws reflect this. Freedom of contract remains the rule even though it is much criticized in some circles and has been hedged considerably over the years. In employment, the old rule was that you could pretty much fire anyone at will for any reason and, if you did, you incurred no legal consequence. This is pure freedom of contract. In time, this unrestricted f…

> In my field, lawyers too see the hours worked as entirely secondary to their jobs. Aren't lawyers typically paid by the hour?

Legal companies bill by the hour, lower-on-the-totempole lawyers (that don't have a company of their own or that have made partner) are typically salaried employees.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#222

Post by teflonhook »

As an employer, and that's your attitude, first of all I wouldn't hire you, because I couldn't rely upon you to get the job done- particularly when things go wrong. And if I did employ you, you certainly wouldn't be part of any stock option or participation scheme for the upside.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#224

Post by rprasad »

moocow01 wrote: post #38
crander wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programmers here are discussing if they choose to work unpaid extra hours or not. You don't make a country great by forbidding extra work regardless of the employee desires. You make a country great by allowing employers and employees to decide amongst themselves case by case. If labor wants to forbid this for other vocations good for them. I would like to keep my right to work more hours on salary or not.

Nobody is forbidding overtime work - they are exempting tech employees from receiving pay for the overtime they work. Much of this legislation was passed in the US through the lobbying of big tech corporations (Microsoft) to increase profit margins. I personally would like to revoke my right to work overtime for free.

They are not prohibiting tech employees from receiving overtime, nor are they prohibiting companies from paying tech employees overtime.

The law simply does not require companies to pay overtime to tech employees (along with other, more traditional professionals such as doctors, accountants, and lawyers).

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#225

Post by eli_gottlieb »

tptacek wrote: post #220
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends quite heavily what sort of software. Web development is booming. Systems software is busting.

This mentality is a little bit crazymaking (but it may just be that I'm crazy). It's always bad for someone out there. The market is not great for SPARC assembly programmers, or for Turbo Pascal programmers, or for Motif UX specialists. I don't believe the market actually is bad for people with a modern systems programming skillset (not least because we have trouble hiring those people), but I don't doubt that there…

Several things:

One, I wasn't referring specifically to myself.

Two, I wasn't referring to someone who never learns new things. What company do you work for? We may have spoken before on this subject...

Three, not everyone is in Silicon Valley.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#226

Post by jacques_chester »

etfb wrote: post #77
BadassFractal wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bingo. What to do about it though? Would meaningful reform of the current system be possible? Where could one start?

The Australian system is quite functional and, unlike the USA, we still have a functioning economy. Granted it mainly comes from digging up bits of the country and selling it cheap to China, but it's not all bad news. The USA could do with a lot more socialism than it's currently got.

Australia was successful before the mining boom started. The policy reforms of the 80s and 90s are the basis of our long-term success.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#227

Post by bdunbar »

mgkimsal wrote: post #214
bdunbar wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an individual, you don't get the diversification effect of #1, so you end up paying a premium rate. Hmm. USAA quoted me $350.81 per month (same plan provider!) for two adults, two children, one adult 'healthy as a horse', one adult with preexisting conditions. Just one pass, without shopping around. That sounds pretty steep - it is - but it's only twice what you could expect to pay for car insurance. I'll bet if I…

it doesn't seem steep to me, but where you live and your ages are two factors you didn't mention (deductible amount is another factor).

I live in fly-over country, in a drive-past town. Cost of living here is pretty low, all things considered. So I've gotten used to stuff being far less than it cost when I lived in the city.

I wonder if I could negotiate a salary increase from my employer in return for opting out of the plan.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#228

Post by bdunbar »

philwelch wrote: post #217
bdunbar wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an individual, you don't get the diversification effect of #1, so you end up paying a premium rate. Hmm. USAA quoted me $350.81 per month (same plan provider!) for two adults, two children, one adult 'healthy as a horse', one adult with preexisting conditions. Just one pass, without shopping around. That sounds pretty steep - it is - but it's only twice what you could expect to pay for car insurance. I'll bet if I…

USAA is an exceptionally good company.

I love USAA to pieces.

For years my time in the Marines was good only for memories (good and bad), cynicism, and a career in IT.

Which isn't bad. But then they let me in the club and my insurance cost dropped like a rock.

Plus they're super easy to deal with. Had some hail damage and where my neighbors were fighting _their_ insurance provider months later USAA couldn't get me the money fast enough.

"Overnight .. is that soon enough? We can borrow an F-18 and air drop in about 90 minutes it if that would be more convenient."

Well not that good. But pretty close.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#229

Post by jberryman »

dclowd9901 wrote: post #172
urbanjunkie wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I don't believe that most such employees see their work as "slavery" when they have to work excessive hours. I think they see it as career development" That made me laugh. "Top executives" typically have compensation packages that, to some degree, directly tie their compensation to the overall company performance. Thus, the harder they work, the more likely it is that the company will perform to or above expectation…

You're not helpless and beholden. There's just simply always a smaller fish. If I turn down the job that requires 60 hours a week, they will likely find someone who is willing to do that. It's partly from a week job market, partly because people are so bad at understanding their own financial situations, and partly because the availability of financial leveraging systems like financing and credit. And, of course, a c…

> You're not helpless and beholden.

For many people, especially those with families (not to mention those with family members with medical issues) the healthcare issue really does leave them beholden. It also stifles entrepreneurship.

Re: Why I Don't Do Unpaid Overtime and Neither Should You

#230

Post by moocow01 »

rprasad wrote: post #224
moocow01 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is forbidding overtime work - they are exempting tech employees from receiving pay for the overtime they work. Much of this legislation was passed in the US through the lobbying of big tech corporations (Microsoft) to increase profit margins. I personally would like to revoke my right to work overtime for free.

They are not prohibiting tech employees from receiving overtime, nor are they prohibiting companies from paying tech employees overtime. The law simply does not require companies to pay overtime to tech employees (along with other, more traditional professionals such as doctors, accountants, and lawyers).

You're correct in that tech companies can pay overtime but in real terms this legislation results in no tech companies that actually pay overtime (but Im sure there is some rare exception). I'm sure there is a bandwagon of free-market folks who would be quick to point out why this is good for tech workers but from a practical point of view it has lead to an industry that treats long hours for the same pay as the norm.
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