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Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

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Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#221
post #196

I have switched to Dvorak only one year ago, after many decades of using QWERTY. I consider this as one of my best decisions and my only regret is that I have not tried to do this many years earlier, because I had wrongly feared that typing Dvorak on a keyboard with QWERTY inscriptions might be a hindrance. As many other posters have already said, the advantage of Dvorak is seldom a greater speed (and I needed a coup…

Did you have discomfort while typing on qwerty? That you noticed before trying Dvorak I mean.

When I was using QWERTY, I did not really have a feeling of discomfort, but I did not enjoy typing and sometimes I resented that this activity is unavoidable for transferring my thoughts into the computer.

After switching to Dvorak, even after only a few days and even if only significantly later I have reached and exceeded the previous typing speed, it already felt much easier to find by touch any key than it has ever felt on QWERTY, despite the fact that I have been using QWERTY since high school, for almost a half of century.

Now I enjoy typing and it feels effortlessly, which has never happened before.

So before trying Dvorak seriously, I was never concerned with the fact that the keyboard layout may be suboptimal. Only after the change the improvement has been obvious and I have realized that what I had been using previously had not been good enough.

Nevertheless, when someone wants to try another keyboard layout, an appropriate time must be chosen, when for a few days there is nothing that must be typed ASAP. During the first few days the drop in typing speed can be very large. The slow typing speed can be very frustrating and it is very difficult to resist the temptation of going back to the previous keyboard layout, for a normal typing speed.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#222
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a colemak user, I have the same flow. I used to have a keyboard that had blank keycaps, but that isn't kind to the rest of the family that uses the computer. :D Numbers, amusingly, can mess me up.

I have literally just learnt about colemak from these comments. I suffer from RSI and have tried Dvorak in the past, but as a qwerty touch typist found it too different. How long did it take you to learn colemak? I guess if you still use it you find it better than qwerty?

I made the switch from Qwerty to Colemak over ten years ago.

How long for me to transition from being quite fast at Qwerty to being happy enough with my Colemak speed? I'd guess roughly 2 to 4 weeks. As an independent software developer and entrepreneur at the time, it worked. I was mostly writing code, not having to write some heroic quantity of emails as a manager.

In addition to the "typing feels better" benefit, I found the very process of changing to be quite beneficial in two ways:

(1) I did more thinking in advance and more planning and therefore less unnecessary typing. This was very niiice. Please imagine Borat saying it for full effect.

(2) The cognitive challenge of switching my primary mode of interaction with computers had a much broader effect on how I appreciated learning and habits in general.

Conclusion: you have should switched yesterday from Qwerty to an APL keyboard. /s

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#223
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have literally just learnt about colemak from these comments. I suffer from RSI and have tried Dvorak in the past, but as a qwerty touch typist found it too different. How long did it take you to learn colemak? I guess if you still use it you find it better than qwerty?

I found it to be more comfortable, so I stuck with it. If I could do it again though, I’d swap between the two as I learned as I’m now rather slow with qwerty.

I know what you mean, though I question how such a transition would pan out.

Any ideas of how well this tends to work as a learning strategy?

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#224
post #95

As a dvorak user, whatever increase in typing speed is mostly irrelevant, for most of us, our output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think. That being said, a long time ago I took an analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character onto dvorak and qwerty keyboards to produce heatmaps, and it's startling how much less the fingers have to move on a dvorak keyboard. So if you're lazy,…

I type between 80-120 wpm with reasonable accuracy on qwerty and I feel super slow compared to the pace of thinking. It's a constant source of stress. I'm only ever comfortable if I force myself to think slower.

> It's a constant source of stress. I'm only ever comfortable if I force myself to think slower.

I have some questions:

1. From a psychological point of view, have you explored ways of coping with this stress? What are your expectations? Do you know why you have the stress? Is about results? Is it about fluidity / flow / fluency? Something else?

2. This may be obvious, but I want to make sure I ask the question to make it really concrete: is one of your goals to transfer your thinking directly to the computer as quickly as possible?

3. Would you be willing to reframe your goal? Perhaps frame your goals as: "Accomplish my goals efficiently with a sense of flow, without rushing down a suboptimal path." You know some of these proverbs:

* "Running faster in the wrong direction won't get you anywhere."

* "Better to walk in the right direction than run in the wrong one."

* "Haste makes waste."

* "A fool at high speed is still a fool."

* "Don't mistake activity for achievement."

* "When you're headed in the wrong direction, progress means turning around."

4. It may be useful to think slower! This might help you let go of framing it as "forcing myself to think slower".

A. Maybe you would feel better if you could reframe this process as not simply thinking slower but also allocating some of your mental processing to summarization and translation and other valuable processing?

B. No knock against your brain, but how do you actually measure your thinking speed and error rate?

C. There are a lot of counterintuitive things happening in the brain when you dig into the neuroscience. Many experiments show that our conscious awareness lags our actual decision-making. Perhaps this can "problematize" your situation and make it interesting, rather than purely stressful. Thinking and typing may not be happening the way you think they are

D. I'd expect for you, a good typist, your brain fires motor control circuits to cause your fingers to type before you are consciously aware of it, if you are aware at all. Ever notice how switching keyboards increases your awareness? This seems to suggest that one's low-level typing awareness (i.e. how keys feel) dulls over time when using one particular keyboard.

E. I have not read this yet, but it seems relevant: "Hierarchical control of cognitive processes: The case for skilled typewriting." by Logan and Crump, 2011. https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2011-04906-001

5. What technologies and/or methods have you considered?

6. Are you familiar with a steno machine (aka stenotype machine / shorthand machine / stenograph)? Might it work for you? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenotype

7. Have you discussed this with others with similar goals? Have you read "Quest for a fully deterministic keyboard shorthand system" https://www.reddit.com/r/shorthand/comments/3ul9y3

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#225
I could never get past the idea of a key sending a different keystroke than the one printed on it.

Yes, I know you're not supposed to look at the keyboard as you type. And I don't. But I still don't like it. It sets off "this is dumb" alarm bells in my head.

And because it's impossible to replace every keyboard I own or use, or physically rearrange their keys from QWERTY to Dvorak/Colemak, i'm stuck with QWERTY.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#226

Ironically Qwerty is extremely well-designed for typing on a touchscreen phone. Dvorak was designed to have common characters on home keys and common character sequences alternate between each hand. That's great on a keyboard with 4 fingers on each hand. On a touch screen, that's really bad! Characters close together complicate touchscreen recognition - is it "poet", "peet", or "pout"? And consecutive characters on o…

I've had the on-screen keyboard on my phone set to Dvorak for > 5 years, and I just can't switch back to Qwerty. I think it's quite good for the phone.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#227

As a dvorak user, whatever increase in typing speed is mostly irrelevant, for most of us, our output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think. That being said, a long time ago I took an analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character onto dvorak and qwerty keyboards to produce heatmaps, and it's startling how much less the fingers have to move on a dvorak keyboard. So if you're lazy,…

Using QUERTY after colemak is like being retarded, so after trying alternate keyboard layouts for a while, I'm just doing a hardpass on anything not QUERTY until we get rid of keyboards entirely.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the instructor would call out "J-J-J Space, K-K-K Space, L-L-L space, sem sem sem space" That nicely demonstrates the poor Qwerty layout. The very first keys you learn are among the least used, especially semicolon. Adding the left hand (ASDF), we can then type 44 words from /usr/share/dict/words, like "salad", "salsa", "flasks", "falls" and "alfalfa". For Dvorak, the instructor would be calling out "H-H-H Space, T…

> That nicely demonstrates the poor Qwerty layout. The very first keys you learn are among the least used, especially semicolon OMG no it does not, your argument is ridiculous. You have to learn all the fingers and then all the keys before you can touchtype, no matter what layout you are learning. You can't efficiently touchtype 20 letters of the alphabet then take your hands off to hunt and peck the rest on a dvorak…

While what you're saying is true, you can only type around 800 English words on the home row using QWERTY. You can type thousands using Dvorak, so mastering the Dvorak home row would gain you more than mastering the QWERTY home row. Dvorak is simply a better-thought-out layout.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#229
post #223
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found it to be more comfortable, so I stuck with it. If I could do it again though, I’d swap between the two as I learned as I’m now rather slow with qwerty.

I know what you mean, though I question how such a transition would pan out. Any ideas of how well this tends to work as a learning strategy?

I have a friend who did it that way, but I’ve never done it myself.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#230
I’ve tried Dvorak and Colemak but went back to QWERTY. Whole software world is developed with QWERTY in mind, and it was too much PITA.

Split keyboard (especially with ortholinear, column staggered layout) will give you much more benefit than any alternative layout - and will be much easier to switch too.

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