Demo: Fully P2P and open source Reddit alternative • Hacker News Board

Re: Demo: Fully P2P and open source Reddit alternative

#221

Post by shagie » Tue, Jun 06, 2023, 5:11 PM UTC

tayo42 wrote: post #126

shagie wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spinning up the backends that are strong enough to support the load that the 3rd party apps put on it isn't a trivial undertaking. Note also that many of the apps were designed to not have advertising or monthly subscription costs. https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/13ws4w3/had_a_ca... > Apollo made 7 billion requests last month What does it cost to stand up that server? Establish the core group needed to mo…

7 billion averages to about 2300/sec and most of that is reads. I also looked at the requests appolo makes and it polls the inbox a lot. The only maybe difficult part is paying for storage. But this isn't large scale at that size, scaling is solved anyway.

The technical things being described here put a bottom on the operational costs of standing up the servers ex nihilo.

Yes, you can stand up a server that can respond to 2300r/s and handle 200GB/day (6 TB/month which is another few hundred dollars)... and the storage for it.

The problem with standing this up is the "how do you pay for it in a way that isn't out of the goodness of your own heart" - because part of the reason people are using these is to avoid paying Reddit or see advertisements.

You will also need someone to answer take down requests for whatever legal reason exists. If you do not handle the takedown and leave it to be unmoderated, there are a number of other applications that serve as an example for the community that forms there.

The difficult part is not paying for compute, egress, or storage. The difficult part is figuring out how to get the customers to pay for it and to pay for the staff needed to maintain server and legal availability.

Writing an app that acts as a conduit for data is quite a different than than being responsible for hosting a service that provides that data.

Re: Demo: Fully P2P and open source Reddit alternative

#222

Post by quazar » Tue, Jun 06, 2023, 5:33 PM UTC

IndigoIncognito wrote: post #7

https://plebbit-test.netlify.app/#/p/politically-incorrect.e... Oh no....

Do you still have that resource list? The links in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32260345 are expired.

Re: Demo: Fully P2P and open source Reddit alternative

#223

Post by keernan » Tue, Jun 06, 2023, 5:47 PM UTC

TylerE wrote: post #168

tlonny wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL but my understanding is that violating the ToS is only ever a problem if your crawler decides to "sign-in", as that constitutes agreeing to the terms of the ToS. Further, old.reddit.com doesn't gate any content (even NSFW stuff) behind a sign-in page (at least for now)

> IANAL but my understanding is that violating the ToS is only ever a problem if your crawler decides to "sign-in" Where on earth would you get that impression? From the reddit ToS: "To use certain features of our Services, you may be required to create a Reddit account (an “Account”) and provide us with a username, password, and certain other information about yourself as set forth in the Privacy Policy." NB: "Certa…

Question: if someone, using the internet, gains access to your personal computer, but doesn't add anything or delete anything, have they committed a crime?

Re: Demo: Fully P2P and open source Reddit alternative

#224

Post by all2 » Tue, Jun 06, 2023, 5:57 PM UTC

warkdarrior wrote: post #123

all2 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully, for the consumer it would be no different than YouTube or Netflix. Unless you don't want ads, then you pay your dues. I have no idea how the experience would vary for the advertisers. For the producer it should offer more flexibility in how they get paid. This is the major selling point I think . The ability to put out a high effort video -- say you made a full length movie -- and be able to charge theater…

Wow, as a consumer I am really sold on this model! You tell me I will pay theater prices and get ad interruptions throughout the show? This is fantastic, sign me up. /s

I apologize. I guess I miscommunicated something. I mean that a creator can opt to charge what they want and also turn off ads if they choose. Or front load the ads, like theaters do. Really, it is up to the creator how they want to format their content.

Re: Demo: Fully P2P and open source Reddit alternative

#225

Post by TylerE » Tue, Jun 06, 2023, 6:11 PM UTC

keernan wrote: post #223

TylerE wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IANAL but my understanding is that violating the ToS is only ever a problem if your crawler decides to "sign-in" Where on earth would you get that impression? From the reddit ToS: "To use certain features of our Services, you may be required to create a Reddit account (an “Account”) and provide us with a username, password, and certain other information about yourself as set forth in the Privacy Policy." NB: "Certa…

Question: if someone, using the internet, gains access to your personal computer, but doesn't add anything or delete anything, have they committed a crime?

Yes. CFAA.

Re: Demo: Fully P2P and open source Reddit alternative

#226

Post by keernan » Tue, Jun 06, 2023, 6:40 PM UTC

TylerE wrote: post #225

keernan wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Question: if someone, using the internet, gains access to your personal computer, but doesn't add anything or delete anything, have they committed a crime?

Yes. CFAA.

Interesting. I just did a quick read. The CFAA protects computer data and is limited to data in which the federal government has a legal interest; data of financial institutions; and perhaps some additional specifically enumerated parties. Its reach is further limited to the theft and subsequent use of data that causes specified types of harm.

So, while it almost certainly would not apply to our personal computers, I think it would probably apply to most commercial companies (provided they were large enough to constitute commercial commerce and provided data was used in a manner explicitly enumerated by the statute)

Edit: it's to its

Re: Demo: Fully P2P and open source Reddit alternative

#227

Post by tlonny » Tue, Jun 06, 2023, 6:57 PM UTC

TylerE wrote: post #168

tlonny wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL but my understanding is that violating the ToS is only ever a problem if your crawler decides to "sign-in", as that constitutes agreeing to the terms of the ToS. Further, old.reddit.com doesn't gate any content (even NSFW stuff) behind a sign-in page (at least for now)

> IANAL but my understanding is that violating the ToS is only ever a problem if your crawler decides to "sign-in" Where on earth would you get that impression? From the reddit ToS: "To use certain features of our Services, you may be required to create a Reddit account (an “Account”) and provide us with a username, password, and certain other information about yourself as set forth in the Privacy Policy." NB: "Certa…

My point wasn't that scraping reddit is not a violation of the ToS, it was that you're not able to legally enforce the terms of the ToS (that you have quoted in your reply) on people who haven't agreed/consented to them (which they do by logging in).

Re: Demo: Fully P2P and open source Reddit alternative

#228

Post by TylerE » Tue, Jun 06, 2023, 6:57 PM UTC

keernan wrote: post #226

TylerE wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. CFAA.

Interesting. I just did a quick read. The CFAA protects computer data and is limited to data in which the federal government has a legal interest; data of financial institutions; and perhaps some additional specifically enumerated parties. Its reach is further limited to the theft and subsequent use of data that causes specified types of harm. So, while it almost certainly would not apply to our personal computers, I…

The interstate commerce clause strikes again. The CFAA has been interpreted in court to apply to all internet connected computers.

Re: Demo: Fully P2P and open source Reddit alternative

#229

Post by estebanabaroa » Tue, Jun 06, 2023, 8:10 PM UTC

wise_young_man wrote: post #144

estebanabaroa wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm paying for it from my savings, around $300k so far

You spent that much on this so far? How do you plan to get a return?

I don't, it's a donation, not a for profit project.

Re: Demo: Fully P2P and open source Reddit alternative

#230

Post by TylerE » Tue, Jun 06, 2023, 8:46 PM UTC

tlonny wrote: post #227

TylerE wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IANAL but my understanding is that violating the ToS is only ever a problem if your crawler decides to "sign-in" Where on earth would you get that impression? From the reddit ToS: "To use certain features of our Services, you may be required to create a Reddit account (an “Account”) and provide us with a username, password, and certain other information about yourself as set forth in the Privacy Policy." NB: "Certa…

My point wasn't that scraping reddit is not a violation of the ToS, it was that you're not able to legally enforce the terms of the ToS (that you have quoted in your reply) on people who haven't agreed/consented to them (which they do by logging in).

Even if I were to agree with your interpretation (and I absolutely do not), this is still plain jane mass copyright infringement. The submitters have given reddit a sublicense to publish their content, not random 3rd parties.