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Microsoft Designer

designer.microsoft.com

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Re: Microsoft Designer

#221
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just the way of capitalism, and it's how the entire economy works. I mean, you're so concerned with the artists work being stolen, but what of the scientists? Yes, the art produced by Stable Diffusion isn't possible without the artists, but it's also not possible without the countless scientists who have worked over decades to get this technology to where it is. I didn't hear artists complaining when they wer…

Scientists are generally paid, at least with public grant money or corporate sponsorship, or by working in corp labs. Artists and writers generally earn their living by selling their works. If they are not paid for their works, they starve, which is why the stereotype of the "starving artist" exists. This is like MS scanning all Open-Source code and generating PROPRIETARY results from that code. Like the art, it was…

My overall point is that if we're going to start asking for handouts due to a rearrangement of the social order, then we can't start and stop the discussion at artists and stable diffusion type technologies.

> If they are not paid for their works, they starve, which is why the stereotype of the "starving artist" exists.

Sort of. Most people actively doing the hard labor in scientific fields are in fact Ph.D. students, who are paid meager stipends, if anything. They also frequently literally starve due to how little they are paid. And yet, it's their hard work that goes into published papers, which then are read by engineers (read: highly-compensated millionaires), who then implement those ideas into production code, which is sold for profit.

Further, much of the scientific process is actually volunteer work. I don't peer edit and review for free, in my spare time, just so Microsoft has an easier time reading the papers that pass through my inbox. I do it because the scientific process requires it, and this is the process we've decided on as a society. But maybe in the future, all scientific research will be for-profit, paid access only. That's the way it will be if the profit keeps getting captured by corporations without proportional taxes being paid back into the system.

> Scientists are generally paid, at least with public grant money

That's one way to look at it. The other way to look at it is the scientists who are paid with grant money are the lucky ones, because the pie is so small. So many other scientists are doing side jobs, hustling, and giving up their dream to be a scientist because the opportunities to make a living in this field are so few and far between. Being a scientist supported by a grant or corporation is a lot like being an artist with a patron, actually.

And why is it this way? The pie is so small to begin with because science is generally not profitable, and so research cannot fund itself. Nonetheless, we as a society feel that scientific research is a worthwhile endeavor, so we fund science, and tax corporations who use the fruits of science industrially. Those funds will then be reinvested into more science.

But now Microsoft and the rest of the big corps don't want to pay their taxes, yet they still want to freely incorporate public-funded research into their for-profit technology products. If that plays out, well who is going to fund the science? The scientists can't, the public won't, the corporations won't.

Re: Microsoft Designer

#222
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just the way of capitalism, and it's how the entire economy works. I mean, you're so concerned with the artists work being stolen, but what of the scientists? Yes, the art produced by Stable Diffusion isn't possible without the artists, but it's also not possible without the countless scientists who have worked over decades to get this technology to where it is. I didn't hear artists complaining when they wer…

Why are you conflating scientific research (something that is paid), with art that was freely uploaded to social media sites and message boards? Microsoft Designer is not spitting out composites of stolen research, it is creating composites of art that can't be matched back to the original. > If artists are being robbed by corporations, then they can get in line if they want a payout, because the rest of us are being…

> Why are you conflating scientific research (something that is paid), with art that was freely uploaded to social media sites and message boards?

Was it paid? How do you know? A lot of research is done by Ph.D. students, who are paid if you're lucky. Often though they are in fact paying for a degree.

Moreover, science and art are often held as two sides of the same coin, because they are both fields that don't generate profit, yet society has deemed socially necessary enough to fund them. So even though scientists and artists are held to be opposites personality wise, the roles they play in society are actually very similar. This means their works are also exploited in a similar way.

> Microsoft Designer is not spitting out composites of stolen research, it is creating composites of art that can't be matched back to the original.

We could accurately say that Microsoft is profiting off of research done by students who go uncompensated. If a starving artist should be paid because their drawing went into a diffusion model that Microsoft profits off of, why shouldn't a starving student who wrote a paper that MS read to create their diffusion model be compensated as well?

> Perhaps you should disclose what AI is stealing from you. For me, nothing, because my career is in an area where I don't have to publicly share my work.

Well, that's one of the problems isn't it? Microsoft doesn't have to disclose or attribute any of the works that went into the production of this technology. But in the general case, if you walk through the OpenAI offices, you'll find stacks of research papers, whose authors are listed readily on those papers. If the artists get in on a royalty cut, I don't see why every one of those authors shouldn't as well (and for that matter all the open source devs whose code is running on their systems).

Re: Microsoft Designer

#223
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter example: Cameras often do rely on other professions to have existed to do their thing. e.g. Architects who built city buildings, fashion designers who designed clothes, and engineers who built cars. They don’t get paid every time their work gets put on Instagram, etc.

I don't know how it is in other countries but in general in France you cannot just take a picture of a building and put it on Instagram without asking the architect for rights : > the image of a building cannot be reproduced without the authorization of the architect who holds the copyright or of his successors in title. Otherwise, the reproduction of a protected work without the authorization of its author constitut…

I read some year ago that this kind of thing applies to New York as well, that was in the context of an open-world Spider-Man game featuring NY skylines.

Re: Microsoft Designer

#224
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paint 3D itself was deprecated later and Paint was un-deprecated, it's just updated by the store now. (It even has a Windows 11 redesign!) Snipping Tool was deprecated, but everything at this point was ported over to the (arguably better) "new" Snipping Tool, and it just got screen(/area) recording too.

Sniping tool also was deprecated. It even at one point had a message and link to Snip & Sketch.

That's what I meant -- old "Snipping Tool" was deprecated and the newer Snip & Sketch, originally forked from OneNote's screenshot utility, was renamed to "Snipping Tool".

Re: Microsoft Designer

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how it is in other countries but in general in France you cannot just take a picture of a building and put it on Instagram without asking the architect for rights : > the image of a building cannot be reproduced without the authorization of the architect who holds the copyright or of his successors in title. Otherwise, the reproduction of a protected work without the authorization of its author constitut…

France must get a lot of money from all the photos of the Eiffel Tower on the internet. Has anyone been sued/convicted of breaking that and paid reparations?

Fun fact, the Eiffel Tower architecture is not protected since 1990, but the lighting is. So it's illegal to use commercialy a night time photo of the tower[1][2].

I don't think anybody has ever been sued but the SETE (Société d'exploitation de la tour Eiffel) do make money with the image.

[1] https://www.toureiffel.paris/en/business/use-image-of-eiffel...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eiffel_Tower#Illumination_copy...

Re: Microsoft Designer

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same argument was made when player pianos came out, when records came out, when radio came out, when photography came out, when TV came out, yet there are likely more performers in every one of these categories than ever. Making content production and duplication cheaper enables more people to consume it, requiring more of it, and more people end up working on the new systems. I suspect these tools will be no dif…

Art isn't a quantitative but qualitative activity. Just consuming more media cheaply is hardly a good thing. If anything we already waste too much time on forgettable, generic media as passive consumers at the expense of health or social life. Wall-E wasn't supposed to be a utopia, and being trapped for 15 hours per day in Zuckerbergs AI Metaverse is not the kind of 'content' we ought to be looking forward to, even i…

All of those arguments have been used for every change in society for thousand of years. For example:

>discovering the negative effect algorithmic social media has on the mental health of teens

Same was said for pants over dresses, for radio, for tv, for rock and roll, for video games, for dancing, for co-ed schools, for educating women, for cameras, for electricity, for catalog ordering, and on and on, with literally the same arguments, the same studies, the same downfall of society, and this has been repeated in cultures the world over as they evolve. With all these terrible decreases in teen life compounding for hundreds to thousands of years, it's amazing they do so well today compared to generations past.

It's also nice when people put their beliefs, created from their upbringing, on the next generation, ignoring that each has adapted and evolved with new changes and each does turn out ok, and for the most part with much better lives.

Instead of picking a negative consequence of some change and ignoring the net change, look at the pros and cons - over time society tends to mitigate the cons and adopt the pros, and today will likely be the same pattern.

Re: Microsoft Designer

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same argument was made when player pianos came out, when records came out, when radio came out, when photography came out, when TV came out, yet there are likely more performers in every one of these categories than ever. Making content production and duplication cheaper enables more people to consume it, requiring more of it, and more people end up working on the new systems. I suspect these tools will be no dif…

Not the same argument. There is a massive difference between "a smaller piece of the pie" and "cut out entirely".

The argument in the past was "cut out entirely," which never ended up being true, and is not going to be true this time. These tools will enable artists a new medium, just like every time in the past. Photography didn't put an end to artists specializing in realistic art. Radio didn't kill live music. AI won't kill artists making art.

Re: Microsoft Designer

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Art isn't a quantitative but qualitative activity. Just consuming more media cheaply is hardly a good thing. If anything we already waste too much time on forgettable, generic media as passive consumers at the expense of health or social life. Wall-E wasn't supposed to be a utopia, and being trapped for 15 hours per day in Zuckerbergs AI Metaverse is not the kind of 'content' we ought to be looking forward to, even i…

All of those arguments have been used for every change in society for thousand of years. For example: >discovering the negative effect algorithmic social media has on the mental health of teens Same was said for pants over dresses, for radio, for tv, for rock and roll, for video games, for dancing, for co-ed schools, for educating women, for cameras, for electricity, for catalog ordering, and on and on, with literall…

>Instead of picking a negative consequence of some change and ignoring the net change, look at the pros and cons

I actually did, you didn't which is why you're engaging in whig history. Today roughly one in six youths is obese. 10% of all American teens are prescribed some psychiatric medication. Over the last five years about 20% of high school students have reported thoughts of suicide. Today people from all age groups report fewer social connections than in any prior decade. All of these stats are at all time highs/lows.

This pattern you're talking about doesn't exist. If you look at actual data there are huge losses in quality of life, some having continued for decades. The tech utopianism in the face of clear evidence is pathological and imaginary. Vague arguments about "thousands of years of history" (do you actually have data on happiness and well-being over 'all of history')? don't constitute an argument, that's just fantasy.

Re: Microsoft Designer

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of those arguments have been used for every change in society for thousand of years. For example: >discovering the negative effect algorithmic social media has on the mental health of teens Same was said for pants over dresses, for radio, for tv, for rock and roll, for video games, for dancing, for co-ed schools, for educating women, for cameras, for electricity, for catalog ordering, and on and on, with literall…

>Instead of picking a negative consequence of some change and ignoring the net change, look at the pros and cons I actually did, you didn't which is why you're engaging in whig history. Today roughly one in six youths is obese. 10% of all American teens are prescribed some psychiatric medication. Over the last five years about 20% of high school students have reported thoughts of suicide. Today people from all age gr…

>If you look at actual data there are huge losses in quality of life, some having continued for decades

Mortality has decreased https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality-in-the-past

>All of these stats are at all time highs/lows.

First, that statement is incorrect. I'll post historical data:

>Over the last five years about 20% of high school students have reported thoughts of suicide.

Suicide rates have been nearly flat for 70+ years: https://www.statista.com/statistics/187478/death-rate-from-s...

Thoughts of suicide match - not an all time high https://www.childtrends.org/publications/teen-suicide-databa...

>Today roughly one in six youths is obese.

Are you claiming this is the fault of tech too?

>10% of all American teens are prescribed some psychiatric medication.

Is the the fault of tech or that more people get diagnosed? Before glasses were invented, 0% of people had them.

>do you actually have data on happiness and well-being over 'all of history'

We certainly do on mortality - and that's improved vastly over the past 100 years, mostly due to tech increases.

>This pattern you're talking about doesn't exist.

I just gave evidence it does exist. A living teen is better than a dead child.

Teens also are happier in general than in the 1990s : https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2019/the-sad-state-of-happi...

And that report points out the correlation between general teen happiness and various internet uses is ~ -0.1, which is pretty weak, with plenty of citations of research backing it up.

>Today people from all age groups report fewer social connections than in any prior decade

"there is no evidence that self-reported loneliness is increasing over time" https://ourworldindata.org/social-connections-and-loneliness

So you can cherry pick all the ills you want, blame them on whatever current boogey man there is, but that same argument has been used for all the things I mentioned above. The correlations, and certainly the causes, are no where near as clear in the research data on these topics.

Re: Microsoft Designer

#230
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If artists can look at each others copyright-in-full-force works and then imitate it, why can't AI? AI can reconstruct many training images in surprising detail. Show me an artist who can draw you an image they practiced on 10 years ago including the rough shape of the watermark. > Of course generating pictures is different from using them, let's say in ads. Microsoft's Copilot is a paid service, same with OpenAI's…

> Show me an artist who can draw you an image they practiced on 10 years ago including the rough shape of the watermark. I can't but that doesn't mean there are none. For music we have a lot of examples of artists who can copy perfectly. For visual arts we have people who take a helicopter tour of a city and then draw it in amazing detail. Yes, time discounts everything for humans. That doesn't mean human artists don…

> I can't but that doesn't mean there are none.

I think the point here is that now you can. Your "AI" can draw it for you with extreme accuracy and then... is it yours? That's the real question here. Pretty simple.

What if we had a copyright law that did give like a percent of detail that has to be different, so you make a new drawing that has the required amount of difference, and it's yours right? Now your "AI" can be trained to make differences in drawings that specifically meet the requirement of however much difference between the original and yours will negate the ability of the original author to make a copyright claim. Pretty straightforward. It's not the case now, but when we have enough content that has to be judged by humans on whether or not it falls under copyright... Anyhoo... I'm not selling content, so I shouldn't care, right?

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