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Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

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Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#221

I’m going to get flamed for this but at this point the closest we’re getting to counter culture is the exact opposite… “Trads”. Young people with super traditional values doing exactly the opposite of most of what you just listed. No one would seriously suggest the trendiest most mainstream supported or glorified lifestyles (van life, queerness, gig work) are counter culture…that IS the culture; there’s very little c…

I think it is at least somewhat contextual. Being LGBTQ in the Deep South is different than in a major coastal city.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#222
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Oh God, not one of these "we used self-reported statistics from metropolitan police departments to determine valid discharges of firearms to paint with broad strokes all over the country" studies. As if they say anything about the rural parts of this country, like my hometown, half an hour from where Ahmaud Arbery was gunned down. https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/22/us/jarrett-hobbs-camden-count... https://www.dailymail.c…

That data generally agrees with victim surveys about the race of offenders of violent crimes. It stands to reason that a group with a larger share of violent criminals is also going to have more police killings. Is there any data that contradict these? Is there any plausible theory about why victims might conspire with police to make it appear as though black Americans collectively overcommit violent crimes?

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a superficial understanding of "support". They make their logo rainbow for a month. None of the groups you mentioned support police abolition, prison abolition, for instance. Police budgets still go up. Homeless encampments still get bulldozed. Black people are still killed by police. Capitalists have co-opted the least disruptive demands of advocates in an attempt to draw attention away from the actual…

If your culture is well-known enough and seen as desirable enough that you start having to no-true-scotsman to differentiate between the corporate poseurs and the true believers, it's a pretty strong sign that you're not a counterculture anymore. People don't try to fake having low cultural status.

> it's a pretty strong sign that you're not a counterculture anymore

The very opposite.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I think your argument is wrong in several ways, but even accepting it hypothetically -- equality of far too many murders by the police is not actually what anyone is looking for.

It’s certainly not what I’m looking for, but BLM was obviously about purported racial inequality with respect to police killings or else Daniel Shaver, Tony Timpa, Justine Damond, etc would be among the Names that we’re told to Say.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> vaccines are supposed to provide immunity (not "protection") This is, in fact, wrong. Vaccines can't give us immunity. "We’re Asking the Impossible of Vaccines" https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/09/steriliz... > Complete protection against infection has long been hailed as the holy grail of vaccination. It might simply be unachievable. > No infection means no disease, no death, and no transmission, t…

See, so I am right that this is counter culture? I said this and it triggered you to jump and respond with fact checks and whatever. https://web.archive.org/web/20060212064058/https://www.merri... Can also show you that the dominant medical narrative around vaccines was that they provide immunity (except in the case of immune compromised individuals). To this day I'm actually astonished watching the entire medical co…

> The definition of vaccine (provides immunity)

"That technical coarseness might help explain why several historical vaccines have been assumed to be sterilizing. With measles, for instance, scientists initially lacked the tests needed to show them otherwise" (from the Atlantic article)

> recession (two quarters of contraction),

"Is Recession Staring Us Down? Already Upon Us? Here’s Why It’s Hard to Say. The U.S. may register a second straight quarter of economic contraction, one benchmark of a recession. But that won’t be the last word. Most economists still don’t think the United States meets the formal definition, which is based on a broader set of indicators, including measures of income, spending and job growth." (New York Times)

> woman (female with XX chromosomes),

"Gender is a complex interaction of underlying biological difference and social norms, not a simplistic either/or" (The Atlantic)

> freedom (from doing what you want to "the ability to choose")

"Freedom Means Doing Whatever You Want?"

"Before getting to the debate, we have to mention two key ideas about what freedom means. The first is that no one has absolute freedom in the sense of having the power to disengage completely from societal norms and values. The second idea is related to the fact that freedom doesn’t just entail the choice between one action or another. It extends to thoughts and emotions as well. All of us have some freedom to choose what we think and feel. We also have to consider the responsibility that is attached to the willingness and ability to choose." https://exploringyourmind.com/freedom-mean-doing-whatever-yo...

> family (husband, wife and kids),

"What is a “family”? Statistically, it is no longer a mother, a father and their biological children living together under one roof (and certainly not with Dad going off to work and Mom staying home). Although perception and acceptance often lag behind reality, there is evidence that a new definition of family — while far from universally accepted — is emerging." (New York Times)

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#226

I'm pretty sure I've been existing in a number of counter-cultures for the last decade or two. These have been either linked to my identity or physical location, I couldn't have properly experienced them through consuming media on the subject. Certainly all required an active choice and/or lifestyle change on my part. Maybe people mean something else by counter-culture, but here are examples from my life: - Freelanci…

[flagged]

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#227

Am I being overly simplistic to say that the answer is that countercultures are found in real life, and not on social media?

Not at all. Silicon Valley tech companies crushed all dissenting opinions online to a comical level. The only place you’re allowed to have a dissenting opinion is in real life

Or you can learn a non-English language.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#228
post #43

I'm pretty sure I've been existing in a number of counter-cultures for the last decade or two. These have been either linked to my identity or physical location, I couldn't have properly experienced them through consuming media on the subject. Certainly all required an active choice and/or lifestyle change on my part. Maybe people mean something else by counter-culture, but here are examples from my life: - Freelanci…

My understanding of counterculture is that it 'counters'. I.e. it inherently searches to change or influence the dominant culture. Your examples do show that we are (thankfully) not a monoculture. But they place themselves outside of our culture, instead trying to influence. A good example of counter culture is BLM, Extinction Rebellion or Occupy Wallstreet. Only thing: those are movements, not cultures. And they are…

BLM, Extinction Rebellion and Occupy Wallstreet are the culture.

Colour-blind antiracism, preparing for global warming instead of pushing green deal & capitalism are countercultures now.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a superficial understanding of "support". They make their logo rainbow for a month. None of the groups you mentioned support police abolition, prison abolition, for instance. Police budgets still go up. Homeless encampments still get bulldozed. Black people are still killed by police. Capitalists have co-opted the least disruptive demands of advocates in an attempt to draw attention away from the actual…

If your culture is well-known enough and seen as desirable enough that you start having to no-true-scotsman to differentiate between the corporate poseurs and the true believers, it's a pretty strong sign that you're not a counterculture anymore. People don't try to fake having low cultural status.

I don't think it's a "no-true-scotsman" to say that they would need to support the core goals of the movement in a meaningful way.
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