Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?

#221

Post by iroh2727 » Fri, Sep 02, 2022, 8:21 PM UTC

ceeplusplus wrote: post #184

toomuchtodo wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chinese public have invested in quicksand represented as a low quality housing stock pyramid scheme the CCP is barely holding together with control economy duct tape. Perhaps domestic consumption is lower than the US is due to this higher savings rate, but lets not pretend that savings is going into productive enterprises. With China aging very rapidly and a total fertility rate that will decline below 1 in the n…

Chinese savings are dumped into housing because the stock market isn't trustworthy there, not because everyone decided housing is the most productive enterprise. Also, dumping your money into savings accounts is definitely better than dumping it into 30% APR BNPL offers for designer clothing and electronics. Or gas guzzling, expensive SUVs and trucks. Ask yourself why Apple has a 50% market share in the US. > doesn’t…

Well, saving is a virtue in itself (a virtue that most Americans don’t have I agree). But it’s really a separate issue. Suppose all Americans suddenly started saving 10% of their income. That would just establish a new standard of living, a new equilibrium.

The point is, though, that the population level class structure and socioeconomic mobility/opportunity would remain. As would the fact that the current generation cannot (as a whole) afford housing the way two generations ago could.

The narrative of “the individual” encourages non-elites to compete amongst themselves for a progressively shrinking portion of the pie. From the perspective of elites it has a twofold benefit: discourage worker solidarity and encourage productivity. From the perspective of workers, the latter benefit is good (we all should strive for competence and contribution), but the former is not good (even just in terms of life enjoyment). Also, at some point the pie needs a drastic and more balanced reallocation.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?

#222

Post by Bakary » Fri, Sep 02, 2022, 9:29 PM UTC

t0mas88 wrote: post #57

sokoloff wrote: post #11

In some places in Europe, after some period of employment, you can demand of your employer to let you work 80% of hours for 80% of pay. I have team members in Europe on this schedule and it works out well for everyone. Based on that experience, I'd also be open to such an arrangement for employees based in geographies where that's not legally required, but is legally and practically permitted. My guess is that most p…

It's not a legal right in my part of Europe but it's super common here for couples that both work and have young kids. The kids go to daycare 3 days per week and each parent takes a day off to cover the rest. Having done that now for a while, I would probably keep my 4 days even when the kids get older and aren't at home. The total output in knowledge work doesn't decrease much (if at all) working 4 instead of 5 days…

Knowledge work output would probably increase significantly for most knowledge workers. Time is the resource but really it's just energy management

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?

#223

Post by Bakary » Fri, Sep 02, 2022, 9:34 PM UTC

thunky wrote: post #208

piva00 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I giving a multiple of my salary returned as value to my employer in that case? If so then yes, the employer is exploiting my work (knowledge, skills, productivity, etc.) and earning a good profit on it, I should be entitled to keep my share of this agreement, no matter how many hours I worked, I've produced the expected value out of those hours. Employers pay for productivity and the value generated by employees,…

While I agree with you in principle that a 40h week is arbitrary and ridiculous... > Employers pay for productivity and the value generated by employees, not hours in a seat. I'm not sure many employers see it that way. If they do, that's great. But I would guess that most think they should be getting 40 hrs worth of "work" out of their employees. What I imagine happens too frequently is that the employee hides the f…

The entire employer-employee relationship is predicated on power imbalances specific to our economic and legal system, so how tragic is mouse jiggling, really?

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?

#224

Post by Bakary » Fri, Sep 02, 2022, 9:53 PM UTC

missedthecue wrote: post #150

henryfjordan wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that it isn't obvious who should reap the benefits of productivity gains, but that means it is also not obvious to me that the capitalist should get it compared to the employee. We created a system that heavily favors the capitalist starting with the Industrial Revolution. Prior to that most of society was subsistence farming. Encouraging capital investment in new machines and factories through laws/policies…

" Why should we continue to award 100% of the gains of new technologies to capitalists? " Because they assume the risk of these ventures. Ever hear the statistics about how 95% of startups fail in the first x years? Meanwhile, the guy clicking around in AutoCAD did nothing to further the rise of productivity. Why should he be gifted the benefits of other's toil simply for breathing?

Entrepreneurs benefit from free toil and public investment all the time. Try starting a business in a poorer country with no good institutions nor infrastructure, inefficient education etc. and it'll become abundantly clear what you are taking for granted.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?

#225

Post by thunky » Fri, Sep 02, 2022, 10:44 PM UTC

Bakary wrote: post #223

thunky wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with you in principle that a 40h week is arbitrary and ridiculous... > Employers pay for productivity and the value generated by employees, not hours in a seat. I'm not sure many employers see it that way. If they do, that's great. But I would guess that most think they should be getting 40 hrs worth of "work" out of their employees. What I imagine happens too frequently is that the employee hides the f…

The entire employer-employee relationship is predicated on power imbalances specific to our economic and legal system, so how tragic is mouse jiggling, really?

"tragic" is a bit dramatic. It's just dishonest and a sign of dysfunction.

I'm sorry but I'm not going to shed a tear for people that defraud their employer because they think they're more valuable than everyone else.

Also just think of what a luxury it is to have the opportunity to fake it. People that do "real" work don't have that opportunity. Imagine a drive thru worker posing a dummy in the window.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?

#226

Post by grog454 » Fri, Sep 02, 2022, 11:01 PM UTC

thunky wrote: post #220

grog454 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My employer collects "screen time" based metrics and working hours aren't part of my employment agreement. This is beside the point. Let's look at it another way. Why do you think someone who spends a majority of their assigned working hours eating, shitting, and flirting with the receptionist should earn the same compensation as someone who spends 100% of their working hours doing things that are the in their job de…

> Why do you think someone who spends a majority of their assigned working hours eating, shitting, and flirting with the receptionist should earn the same compensation as someone who spends 100% of their working hours doing things that are the in their job description? I don't, but it doesn't matter what I think. All that matters is the agreement you have with your employer. If they trust you enough to let you judge…

> But I'm confused. Your employer collects "screen time" metrics, so they must care how much time you actually spend working.

This conclusion doesn't follow. I don't know what they do with them, for which employees, and under what circumstances.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?

#227

Post by thunky » Sat, Sep 03, 2022, 1:49 AM UTC

grog454 wrote: post #226

thunky wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do you think someone who spends a majority of their assigned working hours eating, shitting, and flirting with the receptionist should earn the same compensation as someone who spends 100% of their working hours doing things that are the in their job description? I don't, but it doesn't matter what I think. All that matters is the agreement you have with your employer. If they trust you enough to let you judge…

> But I'm confused. Your employer collects "screen time" metrics, so they must care how much time you actually spend working. This conclusion doesn't follow. I don't know what they do with them, for which employees, and under what circumstances.

How could you conclude anything else? Is there another reason to collect "screen time" metrics other than to keep track of how much time employees spend at their screen working?

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?

#228

Post by grog454 » Sat, Sep 03, 2022, 3:41 AM UTC

thunky wrote: post #227

grog454 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I'm confused. Your employer collects "screen time" metrics, so they must care how much time you actually spend working. This conclusion doesn't follow. I don't know what they do with them, for which employees, and under what circumstances.

How could you conclude anything else? Is there another reason to collect "screen time" metrics other than to keep track of how much time employees spend at their screen working?

Well I can conclude they're interested in tracking some employees and not others. Or that they use the data to negotiate rates with the vision care company they partner with. Or that they look for trends that change over time, or groups of people.

(BTW I'm as eager to find out if HN has a reply depth limit as you are)

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?

#229

Post by Bakary » Sat, Sep 03, 2022, 4:16 AM UTC

thunky wrote: post #225

Bakary wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire employer-employee relationship is predicated on power imbalances specific to our economic and legal system, so how tragic is mouse jiggling, really?

"tragic" is a bit dramatic. It's just dishonest and a sign of dysfunction. I'm sorry but I'm not going to shed a tear for people that defraud their employer because they think they're more valuable than everyone else. Also just think of what a luxury it is to have the opportunity to fake it. People that do "real" work don't have that opportunity. Imagine a drive thru worker posing a dummy in the window.

Slacking off can have moral implications in that it can make your coworkers' lives harder, or can be a problem for the public if it's a socially useful activity like healthcare.

If those conditions aren't met however, I don't really see why the worker should let the employer extract additional value out of them for no benefit, especially if they do fulfill the terms of the contract set to them.

Maybe it's a cultural difference but this seems like a Protestant-style fetishization of work and hierarchy for its own sake. The appeal to civility and honesty in the abstract is busted because the structural relationship is highly uncivil to begin with.

There are less lucky workers out there, so other groups of workers should relinquish their cards? Seems like a non-sequitur. You could turn it around and ask why the employer isn't grateful that they can extract as much value as they currently can. In some EU countries, they're not even allowed to monitor workers or send them work correspondence after hours!

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?

#230

Post by thunky » Sat, Sep 03, 2022, 1:22 PM UTC

Bakary wrote: post #229

thunky wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"tragic" is a bit dramatic. It's just dishonest and a sign of dysfunction. I'm sorry but I'm not going to shed a tear for people that defraud their employer because they think they're more valuable than everyone else. Also just think of what a luxury it is to have the opportunity to fake it. People that do "real" work don't have that opportunity. Imagine a drive thru worker posing a dummy in the window.

Slacking off can have moral implications in that it can make your coworkers' lives harder, or can be a problem for the public if it's a socially useful activity like healthcare. If those conditions aren't met however, I don't really see why the worker should let the employer extract additional value out of them for no benefit, especially if they do fulfill the terms of the contract set to them. Maybe it's a cultural…

> I don't really see why the worker should let the employer extract additional value out of them for no benefit, especially if they do fulfill the terms of the contract set to them.

I agree with this. My contention is that workers are not fullfulling the terms of their contract. I'm not defending the contracts themselves, or saying it makes sense for an employer to require butts in seats for 40 hrs, but I also can't sympathize with people that violate the agreement they entered into.

You're defending "mouse jiggling". That is a deception. Why would they feel the need to fake work if their contract allows them to not work?