Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes. That's how it's worked for the ~7 years I worked for myself. I'm currently working a full time remote job in addition to managing my own company, and there it's more like 75/25 productivity/availability. Unless I'm on call, then its flipped. If I was working retail, I suppose it'd be more like 5/95 productivity/availability.
That's great. I commented elsehwere that I think it's all good as long as the arrangement between the employer and employee is honest. Is your full time remote employer aware that you're not really "full time"?
Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?
211–220 of 238 posts
Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's great. I commented elsehwere that I think it's all good as long as the arrangement between the employer and employee is honest. Is your full time remote employer aware that you're not really "full time"?
What makes me not full time? Particularly if I'm producing the same amount as everyone else? The teams I work with span 9 timezones collectively, and that's when they're not traveling.
Because "full time" measures time, not productivity:
From Google:
occupying or using the whole of the usual working day or week
From Merriam-Webster:
the amount of time considered the normal or standard amount for working during a given period
From Oxford:
for all the hours of a week during which people normally work or study, rather than just for a part of it
The only way this is a problem is if you think you're getting paid by your output and your employer thinks they're paying you for your (full) time. The easy way to test if this is to check with your employer to make sure they know you actually work 10 to 30 hrs per week and the rest of the time you're on call. If they know and they're good with it, then great there's no problem. If you're not comfortable telling them then that's a problem. In that case you would effectively be a "mouse jiggler".
Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?
#213Earlier quoted context omitted.
Interesting. In your answer, you focused on the stream of customers walking in the door, rather than on the welfare of the burger flipper or barista. Do I expect a burger flipper working at a hot grill to be just as safe in hour ten as hour eight or hour six of a given workday? No, I expect that burns, for example, are more likely at the end of long shifts than the beginning. In addition, since humans are not machine…
> Do I expect a burger flipper working at a hot grill to be just as safe in hour ten as hour eight or hour six of a given workday? No, I expect that burns, for example, are more likely at the end of long shifts than the beginning This is completely unrealistic - you clearly have never worked in food service or any sort of low wage customer facing role. There is a rush for each of the 3 meals of the day, and in betwee…
Weird that you know more about my life than I do, I wonder how I made up those memories of working at Carl's Jr as a young person. Tell me, what else have I done or not done, contra my own lived experience?
>> He reasoned that giving workers two days off instead of just one would enable him to push them harder, and get just as much work done while making happier employees, more loyal to him > No, it was not because they got just as much work done, but because it would reduce turnover [1].
Weird that you started with "No," and then went on to say the same thing I said? "happier employees, more loyal to him" vs "would reduce turnover" seem like the same thing. You linked to an article covering almost exactly the same ground I did, and thought that represented disagreement? So, so weird.
> And in the real world, corporations have done that analysis and either decided on Ford's approach (as Costco has) or on the minimum pay possible approach (like Walmart).
I'm not sure the last time you checked in with "the real world," but these days Walmart isn't paying minwage any more, at least not where I live. That extreme turned out to be unsustainable in today's labor market--again, at least where I live--so "the market" and "the real world" seem to be moving on.
> But each worker still serves X customers per hour and works Y hours per week with flexible scheduling. If you suddenly have 20% fewer hours, then the worker has to get paid 20% less, else the business now pays more for labor. Considering a lot of restaurants operate on razor thin margins, this doesn't work out as well as you think.
I have a child working in food service today, right now, in 2022, in America, in the real world. So I can tell you that many employers already flexibly schedule their workers, especially their front-of-house workers, and in some cases get closer to 32 hours than 40 already, specifically ensuring that they're not paying employees to sit idle during slow times. Most restaurants don't have 40 rush hours per week. That was my point--businesses that require physical presence are already scheduling as needed. I then contrasted that by shifting to "office jobs."
But yes, costs rise. Industry-wide, chains which had locations paying federal minimum wage and other locations paying local wages as high as $15/hr had menu price differences ranging from 4-10% for the same food at the same chain restaurants. While restaurant margins are thin, many chains find that location rental costs dwarf even labor costs when determining prices. A McDonald's in Manhattan has menu prices higher than a McDonald's in Pocatello, Idaho, not only because they pay their employees more.
Still, yes, part of this popular push at the low-end is alongside a $15 minimum wage. Either way, labor costs are rising. Some fast-food restaurants in my area have resisted the push for higher wages, and have struggled to find workers, with several (Taco Bell, Wendy's, Dairy Queen) reducing hours of operation, or switching to drive-through-only until they could staff up. Many (including a local McDonald's franchisee) had no trouble with hours because they raised wages to $12/14/15/hour. How much of the subsequent rise in menu prices is due to higher labor costs, and how much is due to international shortages affecting everyone, is unclear. Either way, I'm happy to pay even 20% more for my hamburgers if my kids can get better treatment as workers.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?
#214Please allow me to answer your question in the form of some more questions. Why are all the bosses trying so hard to get everyone back in the office? Why are people working from home being subjected to all kinds of "productivity tracking" that results in things like special cradles to put your mouse in to keep it moving around so you look like you're at the computer when you're actually staring off into space thinkin…
> Why has the US minimum wage only barely begun to budge past the $7.25/h it was set to in 2009, despite that being below poverty lines for most of the country? Nobody actually gets paid $7.25/h. Amazon pays $15/h or more nationwide. That's a baseline. In HCOL areas shitty big chain jobs like Target/Chipotle/Starbucks pay $18-22/h and restaurant servers make 25-30. Making those numbers bigger just enriches landlords…
If nobody got paid $7.25/hr, then there would be no problem raising the minimum wage. As it is, almost nobody in HCOL areas gets paid that, but enough people do, especially outside HCOL areas, that companies spend a lot of money lobbying to ensure the minwage isn't raised.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
The current labor laws force somebody else's view of what is "full-time" employment on everybody. The ideal of "everybody is free to enter into contracts" doesn't result in crushing employees to dust. It results in businesses that treat their employees poorly going out of business. Competition is required for a healthy economy. In many markets the US has legislated to protect the incumbent businesses at the request o…
Businesses that treat workers poorly don’t go out of business. They thrive. Amazon Retail. Walmart. Etc.
Those companies are lobbying for higher minimum wages which will make it impossible for any company to compete with them. If you think their treatment of employees is bad now just wait until their employees truly have no where else to work.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Do I expect a burger flipper working at a hot grill to be just as safe in hour ten as hour eight or hour six of a given workday? No, I expect that burns, for example, are more likely at the end of long shifts than the beginning This is completely unrealistic - you clearly have never worked in food service or any sort of low wage customer facing role. There is a rush for each of the 3 meals of the day, and in betwee…
> you clearly have never worked in food service or any sort of low wage customer facing role Weird that you know more about my life than I do, I wonder how I made up those memories of working at Carl's Jr as a young person. Tell me, what else have I done or not done, contra my own lived experience? >> He reasoned that giving workers two days off instead of just one would enable him to push them harder, and get just a…
Yes, the minimum possible being the minimum market wage that they can hire workers for (even if turnover is high). I don't mean they pay $7.25...
> So I can tell you that many employers already flexibly schedule their workers
Yeah, but those employees get paid only for the time they work, not 100% pay for 80% time. That's the point I was making.
> Either way, I'm happy to pay even 20% more for my hamburgers if my kids can get better treatment as workers.
What actually happens is those jobs get replaced with automation and your kids can't get fast food jobs in the first place. Order taking gets replaced with kiosks and things like fry production get automated [1]. It might not happen overnight but the tech is basically there already with computer vision and robotics.
My local Walmart is already 50% self checkouts (advertising $18/h wages, btw). Amazon has licensed their Amazon Go tech to 3rd party stores. If wages go up 20% overnight the impetus to buy that tech goes way, way up.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
What makes me not full time? Particularly if I'm producing the same amount as everyone else? The teams I work with span 9 timezones collectively, and that's when they're not traveling.
> What makes me not full time? Because "full time" measures time, not productivity: From Google: occupying or using the whole of the usual working day or week From Merriam-Webster: the amount of time considered the normal or standard amount for working during a given period From Oxford: for all the hours of a week during which people normally work or study, rather than just for a part of it The only way this is a pro…
Let's look at it another way. Why do you think someone who spends a majority of their assigned working hours eating, shitting, and flirting with the receptionist should earn the same compensation as someone who spends 100% of their working hours doing things that are the in their job description? When I was naive, I tolerated being the latter in a job with many of the former. This was a contributing factor in deciding to work for myself.
Now, if you want me to produce more than my coworkers that's fine, but I'll have to be compensated more.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Why has the US minimum wage only barely begun to budge past the $7.25/h it was set to in 2009, despite that being below poverty lines for most of the country? Nobody actually gets paid $7.25/h. Amazon pays $15/h or more nationwide. That's a baseline. In HCOL areas shitty big chain jobs like Target/Chipotle/Starbucks pay $18-22/h and restaurant servers make 25-30. Making those numbers bigger just enriches landlords…
This simply isn't true. The Taco Bell nearest my house is paying $7.25/hr for kitchen staff (more for front-of-house), even though they've had to cut hours and are now "drive-through-only" for big chunks of every day. If nobody got paid $7.25/hr, then there would be no problem raising the minimum wage. As it is, almost nobody in HCOL areas gets paid that, but enough people do, especially outside HCOL areas, that comp…
> even though they've had to cut hours and are now "drive-through-only" for big chunks of every day
And when everyone leaves for the higher paying jobs (as they should), they'll raise wages. That's how a market works.
> almost nobody in HCOL areas gets paid that
No, nobody in HCOL areas gets paid that, not only because state and local minimum wages are higher but also because the market price for unskilled labor is way higher than even local minimum wage. And if you're getting underpaid you should quit. There is plenty of access to market wage unskilled jobs, if those people are staying despite being underpaid that's on them.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
This simply isn't true. The Taco Bell nearest my house is paying $7.25/hr for kitchen staff (more for front-of-house), even though they've had to cut hours and are now "drive-through-only" for big chunks of every day. If nobody got paid $7.25/hr, then there would be no problem raising the minimum wage. As it is, almost nobody in HCOL areas gets paid that, but enough people do, especially outside HCOL areas, that comp…
Then the people working there aren't rational actors. Amazon is paying $15/h nationally, why would anyone work for $7.25? > even though they've had to cut hours and are now "drive-through-only" for big chunks of every day And when everyone leaves for the higher paying jobs (as they should), they'll raise wages. That's how a market works. > almost nobody in HCOL areas gets paid that No, nobody in HCOL areas gets paid…
One of my daughters was recently looking for unskilled work, and interviewed for several positions paying less than $15/hr, even worked one for two days before quitting, so I could ask her why she is such an irrational actor, but you've already stated that you know my own history better than I do, so maybe you can tell me why she bothered. Why anyone bothers.
You seem incredibly sure that the market is more rational than I think evidence suggests. I almost begin to think it's an article of faith, and I'm already over-quota on faith-based arguments for the month.
I surrender! Nobody in this country is working for less than $15/hr, so it's completely incomprehensible why so many people are still fighting for a $15/hr minimum wage. Those people must not know what you know.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't we have 3 day weekends yet?
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
> What makes me not full time? Because "full time" measures time, not productivity: From Google: occupying or using the whole of the usual working day or week From Merriam-Webster: the amount of time considered the normal or standard amount for working during a given period From Oxford: for all the hours of a week during which people normally work or study, rather than just for a part of it The only way this is a pro…
My employer collects "screen time" based metrics and working hours aren't part of my employment agreement. This is beside the point. Let's look at it another way. Why do you think someone who spends a majority of their assigned working hours eating, shitting, and flirting with the receptionist should earn the same compensation as someone who spends 100% of their working hours doing things that are the in their job de…
I don't, but it doesn't matter what I think. All that matters is the agreement you have with your employer. If they trust you enough to let you judge when your weekly productivity target is reached before you pack up and go to the beach, then yeah you're golden.
All I'm saying is that I believe a lot of employers actually expect 40 hours of work, so if you finish your "job" in 10 hours then they expect you to let them know so you can do something else productive for them in the remaining 30. And if you don't do that, they would consider that to be dishonest and grounds for discipline. Not saying this is your deal, just that it's a common thing.
But I'm confused. Your employer collects "screen time" metrics, so they must care how much time you actually spend working. On the weeks that you only work 10 hours, how to you avoid getting flagged?