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Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

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Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#221

Post by yupper32 »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #204
ALittleLight wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even worse, the person behind you might fail the brake check. I can't believe people are knowingly operating faulty autopilots on public roads. If my car randomly braked I would take it to the mechanic - not continue to drive it.

Autopilot should be fixed, but the problem in your scenario is people trailing others too closely. If you fail phantom braking, you're going to fail real braking whether it's activated by a computer or not.

Brake checking is (usually) illegal in the US, albeit hard to prove without a dash cam or witnesses.

So no, it's not the case that people trailing too closely is the problem. It's the case of the Tesla requiring, without good reason, the car behind them to brake hard to avoid the collision. This is dangerous and (usually) illegal.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#222

Post by ra7 »

mgarfias wrote: post #213

2021 MYP w/o FSD. Happens often. Usually related to a corner while on cruise control, but can reliabily make it happen cresting a local hill. Have also had it happen while passing a flat deck trailer on the interstate a few weeks ago.

I've completely stopped using Autopilot whenever there is a vehicle behind me (unless it's a highway traffic jam and I'm going <25 mph) because of phantom braking. I only use it when it's completely empty, which of course doesn't happen very often. It's just too unpredictable and I have no interest to be dangerous to others because I want to play with some tech.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#223

Post by darkwater »

alpaca128 wrote: post #184
Retric wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comes down to the actual risks. The real question is has it actually caused any accidents?

With random hard braking the question is not if but when and how often. I'd say the question is whether we should tolerate cars with what you could call undefined behaviour. Imho we shouldn't.

So, any data to back this claim?

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#224

Post by throwaway894345 »

HelloMcFly wrote: post #163
absnetneg wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a brake check if the person in front of you is slowing down and your braking is to maintain safe distance. A brake check is braking for the purpose of affecting those behind you. It seems clear he means it is braking due to the slow down ahead.

> A brake check is braking for the purpose of affecting those behind you. Intent doesn't matter to the person in the other car, who likely is relying on your behavior to some extend to understand traffic ahead. If your driving seems like a brake check and brings in all of the unsafe conditions associated with brake checking, then it's a brake check.

Of course, the unsafe conditions aren't associated with braking, but with the failure of the trailing car to leave adequate room for their own braking. The accident here would happen whether the leading car had a justifiable reason to brake or not, and the trailing driver would be responsible in either case.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#225

Post by Delphiki »

itsoktocry wrote: post #117
silax wrote: post #113

2022 Model Y with FSD. I use Autopilot 50+ miles a day, and use it 98% of the way on trips from San Diego to SF. It infrequently phantom brakes, and more often brakes hard and late and sometimes people think I'm brake-checking them. It also is annoying slow to recover back to cruise speed from a slow down. Also if you're in the right lane when the two right lanes merge- it is totally unreliable, I've been sandwiched…

> My suggestion to Tesla would just be to have a debug button where you can report and elevate the past 10 seconds of driving. Wait, do you think that Tesla are actually obtaining all driver video and manually adjusting the model based on reports like this? I've seen a lot of fanatics with no technology background claim this, but I'm...skeptical to say the least.

My understanding is that the driving logs are only sent to Tesla when you take your car in for service. In addition, I imagine not a lot of people use the bug report feature, so most of the phantom braking in the logs and footage aren't even identified/used.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#226

Post by throwaway894345 »

noirbot wrote: post #165
absnetneg wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a brake check if the person in front of you is slowing down and your braking is to maintain safe distance. A brake check is braking for the purpose of affecting those behind you. It seems clear he means it is braking due to the slow down ahead.

Sure, but if you're doing it far later than a human would have done it, then you're really screwing with the person behind you who isn't an AI with instant response times.

This is why the law requires people to follow at a safe distance. If you're only leaving room for "instant response times" then you had better have instant response times because you're liable.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#227

Post by Delphiki »

plutonorm wrote: post #160
loceng wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised a debug button isn't already in existence? Maybe it's there if you're a beta tester?

it is there and that is why I question the veracity of the above post. All FSD drivers are part of the beta program and they all have report button.

Phantom braking is not exclusive to FSD, so the vast majority of people who experience phantom braking do not have a report button.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#228

Post by darkwater »

zozin wrote: post #166
bruce343434 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It infrequently phantom brakes >more often brakes hard and late >people think I'm brake-checking them >if you're in the right lane when the two right lanes merge- it is totally unreliable >I've been sandwiched between an 18-wheeler and the gutter >once you learn the quirks it is extremely predictable and robust You're taking it better than I would be

It's just standard Tesla fanboy cope. The bottom line is that Tesla is shipping out alpha/beta software to the masses and relying on the masses to absorb the risks of crashing, causing accidents, dying, etc. in order for Tesla to iterate and possibly improve its software. I own an 2022 Model 3 Performance, so I'm not just talking out of my ass. Autopilot is unnerving to use. The car itself is just an appliance devoid…

May I ask you why you bought your M3 Performance in the first place, then? The "appliance" feeling can be seen already in photos, you don't even need a test drive. About software of our car makers being superior, I'd like to have some harder evidence. Reading a bit here and there Tesla seems the less bad option wrt software quality in a car.

Edit: beside just your personal experience

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#229

Post by Delphiki »

colordrops wrote: post #29
toomuchtodo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't speak for OP, but I'm supposed to be paying attention at all times while autopilot is enabled; as soon as I feel the vehicle may phantom brake, I apply more pressure to the accelerator to maintain speed. I believe the NHTSA is going to require Tesla retrofit radar on all vehicles to mitigate their Tesla Vision functionality deficiency. (submitted lengthy dash cam videos and accelerometer data to the NHTSA as a…

I have an early release Model 3 with radar. I suspect they stopped using the radar in a software update once they started releasing Model 3s without radar, as it didn't have this jerky stopping behavior before that.

I believe they're still using radar in cars where the hardware exists (unless you have FSD, in which case it's using vision only).

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#230

Post by gwbas1c »

silax wrote: post #113

2022 Model Y with FSD. I use Autopilot 50+ miles a day, and use it 98% of the way on trips from San Diego to SF. It infrequently phantom brakes, and more often brakes hard and late and sometimes people think I'm brake-checking them. It also is annoying slow to recover back to cruise speed from a slow down. Also if you're in the right lane when the two right lanes merge- it is totally unreliable, I've been sandwiched…

> Tesla would just be to have a debug button where you can report and elevate the past 10 seconds of driving

They do. Push the microphone button and say "Bug Report."

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