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Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

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Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#221

Post by macintux »

jmyeet wrote: post #208
Gravityloss wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putin has been writing and speaking about this for years. He really thinks Russia should control other Slavic people, and former territories of Russia and Soviet Union etc. And it's not only Putin. Most of the other high ranking officials must have been supporting the attack into Ukraine, otherwise it would not have happened. If it was him alone against everyone else, Putin would simply have been replaced. A large po…

I don't put a lot of stock in the Russian Imperialism ambitions as being a serious factor in this invasion. I just don't think it adds up. I mean even if Putin was saying this, that doesn't mean a lot. The US, for example, says they're spreading democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq, fro example. I believe it's far more likely that Russia actually wanted (wants?) a buffer between it and NATO. They've been warning of this…

The USSR “occupied” Ukraine for most of the 20th century, aided and abetted by the Holodomor, so there’s no obvious reason they couldn’t again.

Russian state TV is awash with pundits who are asserting the Russian empire should be re-created in Ukraine and the Baltics, and that Ukrainians are subhuman. There’s plenty of reason to believe Putin wants his empire.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#222

Post by kergonath »

Hamuko wrote: post #134
curiousllama wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention, NATO can't accept any countries with an active border dispute, because it would immediately trigger Article 4. As a result, Russia has an established strategy of taking a slice of any country that considers joining NATO. It worked in both Georgia & Ukraine. If you don't move quick, you won't move. This is the purpose of representative democracy - to allow trusted leaders to make decisions like this on…

And if you try to hold a referendum on joining NATO, Russia will be all over it like nobody's business. I'm glad that we decided to not have a referendum and considering how pro-NATO the opinion polling is, I'm not really worried for the death of democracy.

Referenda have always been double-edged swords. They’ve been using by totalitarian populists since at least the Roman republic.

In most representative democracies, treaties have to be approved after the fact but they certainly do not need to be pre-approved before being negotiated. This is not more undemocratic than a spur-of-the-moment referendum.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#223

Post by ddalex »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #186
ddalex wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And your friends have nukes pointed at the neighbors house - perhaps the neighbour wants to mind his words lest his house be turned in a glassed skate park.

So your friend is willing to risk planetary destruction over a friends list dispute with your neighbor? I'd think thrice before relying on them when such stakes are on the table.

Well, the neighbour that doesn't like my friends broke into my house repeatedly, stole my last food a couple of times, kidnapped several household members, raped my wife and my kid; and now threatens to burn the whole city down if I don't give up my new friends that protect my house.

So yes, lets' burn the city down, why should I live in hell and fear - it's better that no one lives, including the asshole neighbour.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#225

Post by Consultant32452 »

golergka wrote: post #132
Consultant32452 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

I'm not sure how is that relevant here? Because if you're trying to say that US is to blame for this war, here's the newsflash: causal relationships and moral responsibility are not the same thing. Even if you knowingly provoke a criminal to do a crime (for example, by leaving your home unlocked, or by going around a bad neighbourhood in very sexy clothing), it does not in any way absolve him of decision to do the cr…

The world is not simple good guys vs bad guys. Often it's bad guys vs bad guys.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#226

Post by kergonath »

kcplate wrote: post #106
throw-nocoiner wrote: post #84

The way Sweden and Finland admission process unfolded makes a complete mockery of democracy Rushed, decided behind closed doors, by a small clique of elites, without any semblance of democratic mandate, unconstitutional, no real public debate, no referendum, all in an atmosphere of McCarthy-like media frenzy. Any nuance is instantly brushed aside as Putin's propaganda The polls put the support at ~52% in Sweden and ~…

HN to me is a enigma. I see comments on here a lot lamenting simple majorities for presidential elections being a necessary for a “democracy”, and now comments describing simple majorities being un-democractic. I am not making a comment that either is good or bad, just it seems that what “democracy” means tends to be pretty damned subjective.

> I see comments on here a lot lamenting simple majorities for presidential elections being a necessary for a “democracy”, and now comments describing simple majorities being un-democractic.

It might also be that both sets do not overlap much. Nerds have always had strange opinions about what democracy is.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#227

Post by kergonath »

mingusrude wrote: post #119
throw-nocoiner wrote: post #84

The way Sweden and Finland admission process unfolded makes a complete mockery of democracy Rushed, decided behind closed doors, by a small clique of elites, without any semblance of democratic mandate, unconstitutional, no real public debate, no referendum, all in an atmosphere of McCarthy-like media frenzy. Any nuance is instantly brushed aside as Putin's propaganda The polls put the support at ~52% in Sweden and ~…

There's a general election in Sweden in September. If you are correct then I suppose the outcome of the election will show massive losses for the parties that stand behind this decision and so democracy will win.

In any case, pulling out of NATO is a possibility, should the country have second thoughts or the situation change in the future.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#228

Post by kibwen »

bnralt wrote: post #173
fabian2k wrote: post #65

If you have a neighbour that invades sovereign countries, it makes sense to seek strong allies. This is a direct result of Russia invading Ukraine, it doesn't matter how much Russia complains now.

This whole thing has made me reevaluate the way the Cuban Missile Crisis is portrayed in the U.S. It's usually held up as an example of great presidential leadership, with almost no push back. But if you look at the history it's fascinating. The U.S. launched an invasion to try to overthrow the Cuban government during the 1961 Bay of Pigs invasion. Then it moved nuclear missiles up to the USSR's border in Turkey (the…

> It's usually held up as an example of great presidential leadership, with almost no push back.

Where did you get this impression? In my US public school we learned all about the Bay of Pigs. If anything, my takeaway was that Kruschev saved us all by publicly backing down to his own political detriment, whereas Kennedy was only willing to make his concessions in secret.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#229

Post by matheusmoreira »

ddalex wrote: post #223
matheusmoreira wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your friend is willing to risk planetary destruction over a friends list dispute with your neighbor? I'd think thrice before relying on them when such stakes are on the table.

Well, the neighbour that doesn't like my friends broke into my house repeatedly, stole my last food a couple of times, kidnapped several household members, raped my wife and my kid; and now threatens to burn the whole city down if I don't give up my new friends that protect my house. So yes, lets' burn the city down, why should I live in hell and fear - it's better that no one lives, including the asshole neighbour.

So what? All that is nothing compared to the literal destruction of this planet. Better to let them walk all over you than risk destroying the world everybody lives in. I seriously doubt there is a single person in america willing to accept even the possibility of being utterly annihilated by nuclear fire over some foreign european nation. War against Vietnam or Iraq is one thing, war against Russia is on a completely different category.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#230

Post by KennyBlanken »

drexlspivey wrote: post #128
tuukkah wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such a demand is pretty clearly impossible to accept as a peace condition as it would just expose Ukraine to more Russian coercion in the future. Russia also demanded a categorical end to NATO expansion including in Sweden and Finland.

Says who? Reports on the peace deal were that Ukraine had agreed to this point. Also “We might get invaded/bombed in the future” is a strictly better outcome than “we are being bombed right now”

Yeah, it's a bit strange to claim this. NATO has never taken membership from a country actively involved in conflict and Ukraine had been left out of NATO specifically to not inflame Russia.

Putin is obsessed with reunification and anything that doesn't give him that, he isn't interested in. He'd roll tanks right up to the Berlin wall if he thought he could.

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