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The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

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Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#221

Post by jagger27 »

transpute wrote: post #217
jagger27 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2.4GHz, 5GHz, and 6GHz have decent wall penetration, but 60GHz doesn't. It can bounce off walls to get around corners, so it doesn't necessarily need line of sight.

Wi-Fi Sensing works with 2.4/5/6 GHz which pass through walls, it is not specific to 60Ghz.

Yes, and? 5 and 6 GHz already struggle with thick walls (like those found between units in apartment buildings). Presence detection is one thing, but you can't see what I'm having for lunch through several walls with a single 2.4 GHz AP.

500 terahertz = 600 nm (visible light)

60 gigahertz = 5 mm

6 gigahertz = 50 mm

5 gigahertz = 60 mm

2.4 gigahertz = 125 mm

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#222

Post by riddleronroof »

transpute wrote: post #219
jagger27 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is hyperbole. 60GHz cannot penetrate walls and closed doors. 2.4GHz and 5GHz lack the resolution to image you, especially if your adversary only has control of one AP. There are already tons of side channel attacks with existing WiFi and Bluetooth that reveal when someone is in the area. Your neighbour could already be tracking your devices, for all you know.

Here are 400 research papers on Wi-Fi sensing with 2.4/5Ghz, https://dhalperi.github.io/linux-80211n-csitool/#external

Thank you! Also, I can lid the device in a drawer. It’s greatly different than tracking exactly what I’m doing in any room. Also, consider flats next to each other.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#223

Post by EricE »

judge2020 wrote: post #186
transpute wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

802.11bf Wi-Fi 7 Sensing works with all frequencies, 2.4 and up. Even if Neighbor 2 turns off their router, Neighbor 1 could passively use the radio waves from Neighbor 3's router to surveil reflections from Neighbor 2, including keyboard typing, heartrate/breathing, location and physical activity. Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27123493

The problem with this neighbor-spying fear is that "complex math using data from radio waves to sense stuff" is already possible and readily available by anyone willing to study and put in the world of building it, wifi 7 isn't suddenly enabling that part of rf analysis or mathematics.

yes, but the real threat with this is not that it makes something possible that is already possible, but it makes the barrier to use that tech a LOT lower.

Wrapping my house in tin foil is sounding a lot less conspiracy theorist now! Actually my house is going to be stuccoed - I wonder if they are using a metal mesh that I can ground. Hmm...

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#224

Post by EricE »

giantg2 wrote: post #197
judge2020 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many houses and places of business have walls or floors made with thicker material that block/hinder the waves - things like solid wood floors, brick walls or concrete walls can do a number on even 2.4ghz signals.

The in-laws have hardwood floors on both levels. I haven't seen internal masonry walls in most places. Even if that is a concern, I don't see sensing as being a benefit.

Yup - and wiring up a second access point for the upper floors gets rid of all the issues with mesh networks, especially ones from vendors that don't provide dedicated radios to mesh over.

If you don't have the expertise to run ethernet cable yourself, just find local companies that install alarms - they have lots of ways to run and hide cables; it's their job after all!

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#225

Post by EricE »

KingMachiavelli wrote: post #37

There seems to be a lot of FUD about this. Make no mistake, the malicious and privacy invasive applications are already being used; they just don't follow a IEEE spec and aren't associated with WiFi directly. If a maliciously controlled router wants to track you it already can because your phone, smart watch, and laptop already broadcast themselves. This technology may not seem useful to the purpose of WiFi on it's f…

>People already have WiFi enabled lights and other sensors so providing a standard for object & people detection will make those use cases even better.

Yet another reason I prefer Zwave for my home automation communications. Sure you could probably use it in the same way, but it won't be handed to you on a silver platter like the wifi stuff discussed here!

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#226

Post by EricE »

Jimmc414 wrote: post #211

This could easily fall within the realm of the Supreme Court's decision in KYLLO v. UNITED STATES where it was ruled that a thermal imaging search of a home is a violation of the US 4th amendment. http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/kyllo.h...

As we know, outlawing activities is a sure-fire way to prevent them from happening!

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#227

Post by EricE »

elric wrote: post #76
barbazoo wrote: post #5

The only real practical example is fall detection, what's the real purpose of this?

I've long had an obsession with energy savings and heating, and I think the best way to save energy on heating is by heating people instead of building. With accurate person detection in a room, you could shine low intensity IR at their exact position to keep them warm without wasting energy on heating the rest of the room. But yeah, I think we can all expect this will be used to monitor behaviour in stores, to spy o…

>"you could shine low intensity IR at their exact position to keep them warm without wasting energy on heating the rest of the room."

brings new meaning to beam forming! I like it.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#228

Post by tagoregrtst »

jagger27 wrote: post #221
transpute wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wi-Fi Sensing works with 2.4/5/6 GHz which pass through walls, it is not specific to 60Ghz.

Yes, and? 5 and 6 GHz already struggle with thick walls (like those found between units in apartment buildings). Presence detection is one thing, but you can't see what I'm having for lunch through several walls with a single 2.4 GHz AP. 500 terahertz = 600 nm (visible light) 60 gigahertz = 5 mm 6 gigahertz = 50 mm 5 gigahertz = 60 mm 2.4 gigahertz = 125 mm

“Yes and”

- Unless 2.4 and 5 GHz are taken off the standard, my router will see me through the walls.

- At 60 GHz, if I have wifi, my router can see me

- To make our concerns clear to you, even at 125 mm resolution, you can tell if I like my wife to drill my bottom with a strap on. Or you can tell if I piously say my prayers at night (something that is increasingly political). Or if the immigrant next door spanks his kids. Or if his 15 year old daughter is “exploring” her body.

And for what benefit exactly?

So an ad agency can track me and know Im struggling with my diet, hovering over the fridge door?

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#229

Post by stjohnswarts »

bluGill wrote: post #159
zeepzeep wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not just for spying on your cat. Can we stop downplaying privacy issues please?

Sure, can privacy advocates stop down playing what we lose because we value privacy though? There needs to be a balance, location information will be very useful for a lot of things, but only if we have it fully implemented. I want things to sense when I fall and call for help for me. (If I was at a big risk I'd have a button, but for the average young person the risk is non-zero but very small). I want my home autom…

I'm fine for this as long as it is opt-IN
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