Live data from Hacker News

The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

char.gd

221–230 of 256 posts

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft's big money probably isn't Windows anymore, but Azure. Given that they make so much more money off their cloud offerings, I suspect that they actively want to kill off personal computing entirely. If so, they're doing a good job with recent Windows releases.

With the move to subscription services like Office 365, and the startling number of incompetents that think VDI terminals are acceptable workstations for users, I could definitely see Windows desktop disappearing in the next decade or so, the OS merely being a bootloader for a browser. Everything will be either a Chromebook or EdgeBook, basically.

Modern OSes are little more than bootloaders and thin driver layers for Discord and Chrome anyway.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#222
post #57
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That train left long back; nobody wants a Windows-only app when half the management are using Macs. Unless of course you're taking about pro apps like AutoCad or Photoshop; but they have never been electron and unlikely to ever be.

We have plenty of Windows-only customers. We're still giving them wrapped web apps when they ask for desktop applications. Because even if the customer is all-Windows, developers sure aren't (unless you're a C#-exclusive sweatshop, maybe?), and stuff like Bootstrap+jQuery is more stable than Windows GUI toolkits these days. Lower development costs and lower ongoing maintenance costs, win-win.

There are cross-platform toolkits that render using native controls. Bootstrap+jQuery and Win32 are not the only two possible options.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#223
post #58
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do want to see a return to native apps but there are no worthwhile incentives to do so outside of "our customers demanded a native app." Every native app I have ever used has been many times snappier than its Electron/Web equivalent. Think on why customers demand native apps.

We’re not demanding native apps at all. We’re demanding apps that work on our system of choice and get regular updates. If Electron is what it takes then I’ll use an Electron app and not care.

Updates are the last thing I want as a user, thank you very much. Windows and constantly shifting UI of various apps have soiled this concept altogether in the minds of many users.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#224

If desktops could make a platform where I can write my app in one language, host it on my own server and get global distribution running in a sandboxed environment then I'd consider it. The web distribution model is just so much nicer for users and devs. No app stores, no install/uninstall process, no access to system internals. I can deploy an app today and just send a link to my friends for them to use it. It takes…

> If desktops could make a platform where I can write my app in one language, host it on my own server and get global distribution running in a sandboxed environment then I'd consider it. It was called Java and ironically people hated it because it was sluggish and didn't use native widgets. Now we have webapps which reinvent the GUI on almost every site and have built in 100ms+ latencies. Go figure. > The web distri…

You have a lot of gripes.

> It was called Java and ironically people hated it because it was sluggish and didn't use native widgets.

First, Java is in use on plenty of systems. It has all but disappeared as a serious client side system - but not because of performance. Java failed more because it failed to meet market expectations, especially in ease of use. Other solutions were more agile in creating better platforms on the client side.

> Now we have webapps which reinvent the GUI on almost every site

This is not an impediment to adoption. This is clearly seen on such successful historical software like winamp which intentionally abandoned fitting the mold. X has not historically had much consistency at all for GUI. Xlib, Motive, GTK, Qt/KDE, at any given time there has been many options to pick from.

You do lose system-consistency, and that can be a negative. However, you gain platform consistency in your application appearing the same on pretty much every device. It's not a total negative.

> and have built in 100ms+ latencies. Go figure.

Webapps do not need to hit the backend for every little thing. That latency requirement really depends on how much data is appropriate to send to the client and the development philosophy of the developer. For personally owned data it can certainly live on the client and have a replication stream to the cloud system and have no built-in network latency. This is not a hard requirement for a webapp.

> No ability to use it at all in an area with shitty network, no consistency, no integration, no respect for OS themes, no ability to continue using old versions if something is wrong with the new one...

Webapps (PWAs, electron, cordova, and websites for that matter) can all work offline if they are designed that way. Just like native software can be built to require the mothership to do anything and behave just like a traditional website. This issue is more mindset than fundamental to the technology.

You hit the OS integration side pretty hard. The software solves a problem, its success depends on that. All this integration is simply a list of "nice to haves". The market has shown time and time again that spending too much on your hobby features rather than what the customer's actually want is not a long term winning devopment strategy.

Look at it from the user side. If some slightly slower, loud looking software solves my problem 200% better than my current native solution - I'm switching.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want native apps because I want a native experience: Keyboard shortcuts and UX patterns should be consistent throughout most applications. I'm fine with some exceptions (e.g. video editing, photo editing, etc.), but generally I want consistency. I want native apps because my bought RAM and CPU cycles are precious resources: they shouldn't be treated like a "free for all" by lazy devs. Not every native dev uses thes…

Thank you! I prefer native applications for the same reasons. Whenever we hear advocacy of web apps, it’s always from devs about dev problems. “I don’t have to learn more than one language!” and “Distribution is easier!” and “no AppStore rules!” and “It’s easier to monetize + no sharing revenue with the store vendor!” and “I don’t have to worry about supporting multiple versions floating around!” These are all develo…

Dev problems can also reasonably be construed to mean extra cost/schedule to produce the item. Customers also care about cost and availability.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#226

Are there any solid statistics on what “users” demand? This keeps being thrown around: “users want, demand and need native desktop applications”. Who are these users? Under what circumstances do they “want” such things?

I want native apps because I want a native experience: Keyboard shortcuts and UX patterns should be consistent throughout most applications. I'm fine with some exceptions (e.g. video editing, photo editing, etc.), but generally I want consistency. I want native apps because my bought RAM and CPU cycles are precious resources: they shouldn't be treated like a "free for all" by lazy devs. Not every native dev uses thes…

I agree with the browser sandbox. I think PWAs are a better approach than electron for most desktop oriented webapps. Retains the full browser sandbox including extensions, and you don't need a full 2nd browser running - faster launch and lower footprint. Just a website with a native-ish looking install and skin.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft made .NET platform cross platform years ago but a UI has been missing. They have a cross platform UI project now too https://github.com/dotnet/maui

They almost always have a cross platform UI project going until they abandon it and start a new one :(

No, they always had a Windows-only UI project going until they abandon it and start a new one. Having a cross-platform UI project going until they abandon it and start a new one is something new under Satya.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They almost always have a cross platform UI project going until they abandon it and start a new one :(

No, they always had a Windows-only UI project going until they abandon it and start a new one. Having a cross-platform UI project going until they abandon it and start a new one is something new under Satya.

Satya seems a true visionary and disrupter :)

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#230

How is it going for the Nylas Email Client? Does it still exist? Also very importantly: Are users paying premium for the Nylas Electron Qwality, or is it cheaper to just use Office 365/AWS/Google?

In the telecom business, low latency is viewed as a competitive advantage!

Bonus points if your competitor pays their employee's in US Dollars! Means we can make a BETTER product, for cheaper!

[1]: https://www2.deloitte.com/us/en/insights/industry/telecommun...

Post reply on HN