Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing? • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#221

Post by thijsc » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 6:25 AM UTC

SOMA_BOFH wrote: post #210

thijsc wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reporting back: Your comment is utter nonsense. There is a thriving tech scene in Europe and we do quite well! Reliable and cheap health care is a huge boon for small entrepreneurs. There’s little regulation to deal with as a software company. Child care and great schools are cheap or free. Yes firing people is much harder, that is a different context compared to the US you have to properly plan for. Which we do over…

>There is a thriving tech scene in Europe please explain

Hard to know where to start!

Looking at the Netherlands, where I'm from: There are many fast-growing tech companies. Both big and small. Bigger examples are Adyen and Elastic. GitLab started out here.

This is a pretty nice overview, which still misses a lot: https://www.notion.so/Dutch-SaaS-Landscape-89504403a57e43f58...

There are many many tech companies with 10s of millions of revenue that aren't even on this list.

On the other side of the spectrum we have a huge high-tech industry around Eindhoven. ASML is market leader by far in machines to produce chips. The M1 is made possible by them for a large part. NXP is a huge chip company.

I could go on. There is a very diverse landscape here. I'm sure if you look closely you will find a lot in other European countries too.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#222

Post by yoz-y » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 6:25 AM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #30

Renaud wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just better worker protection. It's the whole system that has more social safeties for everyone. You might be better off with better conditions working for a top American company but you are not most people, you are part of a privileged few who had the capacity (opportunity, financial, intellectual) to be part of a a select who can enjoy this position. You're also dependent on your company to provide these b…

> knowing you will get support if you lose your job, get cared for if you get sick and when you get old, have an education that is not financially elitist, make enough to live -modestly- and feed your family on a single job But North American companies also outperform on this. My health insurance is better than a local company. My sick coverage is better than a local company. My educational opportunities are better t…

Beware of the survivorship bias. North American companies operating in the EU are those that are the most successful even in US. You would have a better everything working there compared to elsewhere disregarding of the locality.

The advantage is really in working for a rich company.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#223

Post by coldtea » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 6:27 AM UTC

SOMA_BOFH wrote: post #205

yoz-y wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article, most people here, and the reality disagrees with that. The point is that all the giants are elsewhere. Case in point as mentioned elsewhere: we actually have ISP competition here.

and as a result of this, you're more innovative how...?

In that we have better internet for cheaper prices than the US, for example.

Between national and state debts, Trump and the Dems electing a zombie, rampant crime, police brutality 10x that of the EU, no work-life balance, average citizens that are the laughing stock of the West education wise, huge inequality, depression and the opioeid epidemic, crumbling infrastructure, the largest incarceration rate per capita in the world, the western capital of nutty religious people and gun-lovers, how does your innovation work for you?

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#224

Post by woodson » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 6:28 AM UTC

yarcob wrote: post #152

GiorgioG wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as I'd like to agree (I am pro-national healthcare for the US) - if you don't have $20,000 (let's say that covers your annual premiums & deductible) - you sure as heck don't have the funds to quit your job and become a full-time entrepreneur.

You can start a software business in Austria with just a laptop and get health insurance for 32€/month (total social security payments if you don't make profits are about 150€/month). Fees for registering a company are waived/reduced for founders. I had nowhere near $20000 when I started. Sure, if you want to open a capital intensive business like a restaurant, you'll need more money. But that's the same everywhere.

It's somewhat more difficult for founding a limited liability company there, where the capital requirements are much higher than in most other countries (Eur 35K).

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#225

Post by bennybob » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 6:28 AM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #163

SOMA_BOFH wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

have you tried to start a company there?

Why should society optimize for how easy it is to start a business?

Why wouldn't you? The number of EU professionals I've worked with here in the uk over the years is surprising to me, they all left their home countries because their prospects where limited by their governments with over zealous interference in business. Living in a business friendly country has obvious benefits: jobs and money

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#226

Post by onion2k » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 6:30 AM UTC

apatters wrote: post #180

onion2k wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should society optimize for how easy it is to start a business?

Because if you don't you'll end up with fewer businesses, which will concentrate wealth, which has documented negative effects on society.

You'll end up with fewer businesses, but the ones that won't get started are the ones people aren't really willing to put effort in to starting. You'll only really lose the easy "fill in a form and off you go" businesses. I don't imagine that's much of a loss. If someone has an idea, and a real drive to start, then they can start pretty much anywhere, even if it isn't super simple to register a company. So, really, making it easy to start a business just filters out the people who aren't especially passionate. The rest will battle through (and complain about the red tape while they do.)

And let's face it - the sort of businesses that HN readers want to start up are rarely that simple. Most people here are dealing with equity, vesting, cliffs, angel investors, VC money, cross-state and international taxation etc. We're not put off by something being a bit harder. Why should other people be?

So, while you're right that there might be fewer businesses, the EU doesn't actually stop people starting if they really want to.

It's also worth pointing out that if someone is falling at the hurdle of just registering and starting a company then the chance of success is very low. There are going to be much harder challenges ahead even where company formation is complicated.

It's also worth noting that some parts of the EU make it a lot easier to start even than the US. Estonia's e-residency programme makes it incredibly easy to register for limited citizenship and start a digital business based there.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#227

Post by bennybob » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 6:31 AM UTC

reader_mode wrote: post #150

thijsc wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reporting back: Your comment is utter nonsense. There is a thriving tech scene in Europe and we do quite well! Reliable and cheap health care is a huge boon for small entrepreneurs. There’s little regulation to deal with as a software company. Child care and great schools are cheap or free. Yes firing people is much harder, that is a different context compared to the US you have to properly plan for. Which we do over…

> There is a thriving tech scene in Europe and we do quite well! Is there really ? I see attempts at copying the US tech scene, but a lot of it seems structured to suck money out of government funds and programs. I see very little private investment. Just recently I talked to a local VC, in a casual chat about how they started their fund I found out they pulled money out of a EU fund, they had to put up like 25% of t…

Also wages in tech in the EU are laughably bad compared to USA. I'm in the UK, same problem. Yet everyone seems to think that a couple weeks more holiday makes up for it.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#228

Post by jamil7 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 6:31 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #219

238475235243 wrote: post #43

I've lived in a few different parts of the EU, and couldn't imagine a worse idea than starting a company there (which I did, once). Starting is hard enough without the general negative attitudes, the government insanities, the insane taxes, the low work ethic, the 8 weeks of vacation every month (I exaggerate, slightly). And I was in one of the two best EU countries, God only knows how bad it is in Spain or Italy or…

> the low work ethic, the 8 weeks of vacation every month (I exaggerate, slightly) I'd say we better keep our lifestyles and worldviews and be corporate also-runs, than be slaves also-run-by-corporations like the US.

This thread is full of people explaining that Europeans are lazy and unproductive workers lacking ambition based on anecdotes of completely normal occurrences like an employee taking a vacation.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#229

Post by yoz-y » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 6:32 AM UTC

SOMA_BOFH wrote: post #205

yoz-y wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article, most people here, and the reality disagrees with that. The point is that all the giants are elsewhere. Case in point as mentioned elsewhere: we actually have ISP competition here.

and as a result of this, you're more innovative how...?

I’m not claiming we are more innovative as a result.

As a result we have much better mobile plans for example. Every time I see a Ting ad I marvel at how expensive their plans are, and then they compare that to the likes of Verizon…

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#230

Post by SOMA_BOFH » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 6:32 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #219

238475235243 wrote: post #43

I've lived in a few different parts of the EU, and couldn't imagine a worse idea than starting a company there (which I did, once). Starting is hard enough without the general negative attitudes, the government insanities, the insane taxes, the low work ethic, the 8 weeks of vacation every month (I exaggerate, slightly). And I was in one of the two best EU countries, God only knows how bad it is in Spain or Italy or…

> the low work ethic, the 8 weeks of vacation every month (I exaggerate, slightly) I'd say we better keep our lifestyles and worldviews and be corporate also-runs, than be slaves also-run-by-corporations like the US.

you keep your lifestyles, we'll keep our innovation.