Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing? • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#21

Post by _s » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 1:03 AM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #14

profunctor wrote: post #4

Would have been nice if they had given a serious mention to some of the positives. Sure, Europe ahs hundreds of mobile operators but we also have cheaper plans than any I could find in America. We also have serious competition with our internet providers so I can actually switch to a better service. Anyway it is sad that we can't seem to grow as many new large companies. Hopefully we can improve at that while keeping…

> Hopefully we can improve at that while keeping worker protections This is how Europeans defend their system - better worker protections. But I get far better pay, conditions, and work-life balance at a North American company than I could possibly expect working for a local company. I'm not sure this defence really works anymore.

If you’re a “professional” (engineers, lawyers, doctors etc) in any capacity; you will be given more - but for the majority of the workforce in retail, hospitality, services - you are much worse off; the European social support is geared towards a more even society.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#22

Post by PKop » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 1:05 AM UTC

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #3

> These internal barriers mean Europe has many smaller firms operating at national, not continental, scale. Each country tends to have its own banks, utilities, airlines and supermarkets. (Europe has over 100 mobile operators, compared with a handful in America or China.) These lack the economies of scale and opportunities to grow quickly enjoyed by firms plying the American or Chinese markets. This is a huge advanta…

And this is a good thing for those that care more about language, culture, laws, infrastructure, and having their own unique version of them, than they do about the success and profitability of multinational corporations.

Diversity is destroyed if capital simply dissolves all differences and subsumes nations and entire regions, homogenizing everything.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#23

Post by PKop » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 1:06 AM UTC

jellicle wrote: post #6

> These internal barriers mean Europe has many smaller firms operating at national, not continental, scale. Each country tends to have its own banks, utilities, airlines and supermarkets. (Europe has over 100 mobile operators, compared with a handful in America or China.) But all of that is a tremendous bonus for Europeans, not a penalty.

Exactly. People are mistaking "The Economist" and the entities they represent, and their views for what is best for Europeans. I'd say it is a feature, not a bug, that they don't have giant corporations dominating everything.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#24

Post by erhk » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 1:07 AM UTC

octodog wrote: post #12

This article doesn't do a good job of explaining why having many huge corporations is a boon. My guess is that many Europeans are perfectly fine with that.

Europe is extracting less value from its people than the U.S. is right now. Hardly a bad thing

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#25

Post by erhk » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 1:09 AM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #10

jellicle wrote: post #6

> These internal barriers mean Europe has many smaller firms operating at national, not continental, scale. Each country tends to have its own banks, utilities, airlines and supermarkets. (Europe has over 100 mobile operators, compared with a handful in America or China.) But all of that is a tremendous bonus for Europeans, not a penalty.

There's benefits to larger companies, such as being willing and able to fund bigger research and development projects. There's opportunities at companies like Google that just aren't available at any European company.

Why should research be private? OpenAI comes to mind. Also open source as a whole is in counter to this.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#26

Post by chrisseaton » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 1:13 AM UTC

erhk wrote: post #25

chrisseaton wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's benefits to larger companies, such as being willing and able to fund bigger research and development projects. There's opportunities at companies like Google that just aren't available at any European company.

Why should research be private? OpenAI comes to mind. Also open source as a whole is in counter to this.

> Why should research be private?

Nobody said it should be so who are you asking this question to?

Does Europe have a better way to do research that isn't private? Research output suggests that they do not.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#27

Post by xwolfi » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 1:14 AM UTC

okareaman wrote: post #9

The opening paragraph: In 1984 a besuited 20-something American executive on a visit to France offered Europeans a few tips for corporate success. Entrepreneurs needed to be given a second chance if they failed and government bureaucrats made for lousy investors, he told a television interviewer. His advice was sage. But European companies ruled the global corporate roost alongside those of America and, occasionally,…

As someone who grew up in Normandy, it does little to me obviously. Except the part on what we lack and should do which is still so damn hard to convince people is the solution.

People in France care so much more on raising their kids, having good friends, living somewhere fun or interesting, having time away from work than they forget us the little busy bees who have to pay for all that.

I gave up after 3 years of work and taxes and being called "rich" by everyone around me for earning 40k usd/year. Moved to Hong Kong, tripled my salary and fuck these hedonists.

Life is a purgatory where you must suffer away from your family to build great consumer objects, like California taught us. You can be proud.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#28

Post by Renaud » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 1:14 AM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #14

profunctor wrote: post #4

Would have been nice if they had given a serious mention to some of the positives. Sure, Europe ahs hundreds of mobile operators but we also have cheaper plans than any I could find in America. We also have serious competition with our internet providers so I can actually switch to a better service. Anyway it is sad that we can't seem to grow as many new large companies. Hopefully we can improve at that while keeping…

> Hopefully we can improve at that while keeping worker protections This is how Europeans defend their system - better worker protections. But I get far better pay, conditions, and work-life balance at a North American company than I could possibly expect working for a local company. I'm not sure this defence really works anymore.

It's not just better worker protection. It's the whole system that has more social safeties for everyone.

You might be better off with better conditions working for a top American company but you are not most people, you are part of a privileged few who had the capacity (opportunity, financial, intellectual) to be part of a a select who can enjoy this position. You're also dependent on your company to provide these benefits.

Having competition from company on benefits is great for everyone but there must be a minimum for anyone in a society to be protected against predatory companies and to not have to work multiple jobs to feed their family.

Having a minimum of protection, knowing you will get support if you lose your job, get cared for if you get sick and when you get old, have an education that is not financially elitist, make enough to live -modestly- and feed your family on a single job,... these are worth a lot to a society.

Everyone is free to argue the cost of that of course, but it's a way to reduce disparity and the risk of poverty.

No system is ideal, and if you are lucky enough to have your skills in great demand then you have a chance to make a very decent life for yourself. For most people that's not really the case though and it's shouldn't be left solely to the randomness and kindness of the company you work for.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#29

Post by underwater » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 1:15 AM UTC

okareaman wrote: post #9

The opening paragraph: In 1984 a besuited 20-something American executive on a visit to France offered Europeans a few tips for corporate success. Entrepreneurs needed to be given a second chance if they failed and government bureaucrats made for lousy investors, he told a television interviewer. His advice was sage. But European companies ruled the global corporate roost alongside those of America and, occasionally,…

On the other hand, Steve Jobs rejected conventional medicine when he became sick, which may have contributed to his premature death.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#30

Post by chrisseaton » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 1:16 AM UTC

Renaud wrote: post #28

chrisseaton wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hopefully we can improve at that while keeping worker protections This is how Europeans defend their system - better worker protections. But I get far better pay, conditions, and work-life balance at a North American company than I could possibly expect working for a local company. I'm not sure this defence really works anymore.

It's not just better worker protection. It's the whole system that has more social safeties for everyone. You might be better off with better conditions working for a top American company but you are not most people, you are part of a privileged few who had the capacity (opportunity, financial, intellectual) to be part of a a select who can enjoy this position. You're also dependent on your company to provide these b…

> knowing you will get support if you lose your job, get cared for if you get sick and when you get old, have an education that is not financially elitist, make enough to live -modestly- and feed your family on a single job

But North American companies also outperform on this.

My health insurance is better than a local company. My sick coverage is better than a local company. My educational opportunities are better than with a local company. My ability to support my family are better than a local company. Even my time off is better than a local company!