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We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

nytimes.com

221–230 of 461 posts

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#221

Birthrates are a powerful, but lagging/post-hoc indicator of public policy effects. It's worth noting that we tend to associate high birthrates with poverty and negative social outcomes. Except, when rates are low we (western countries) use immigration from high-birthrate societies to shore up the population replacement rate, as the article notes. When you look at who is having kids in the US and Canada, the families…

> I'd speculate this is because if you are either rich or poor you have stability in that your life circumstances aren't going to change that radically, In the U.S. this may be due not to 'stability', but Medicaid. To be clear, Medicaid benefits are a hot mess of bureaucracy. To paraphrase Voltaire: 'The point of Medicaid is to ensure that no two people are covered under the same set of rules'. That said, Medicaid co…

I've never heard of anyone paying $80k for a c-section out of pocket, and I know a lot of people that got them. Hell, my wife had to have 2 and the total bills were around $25k, and we paid around $2k out of pocket after insurance.

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#222

Birthrates are a powerful, but lagging/post-hoc indicator of public policy effects. It's worth noting that we tend to associate high birthrates with poverty and negative social outcomes. Except, when rates are low we (western countries) use immigration from high-birthrate societies to shore up the population replacement rate, as the article notes. When you look at who is having kids in the US and Canada, the families…

As a new father, I share this perspective. To get an anecdotal sense of our financial struggle, we have 2-4x the net worth that my parents when they were our age, but cannot afford the same house that I grew up in and doubt we ever will.

Makes you wonder whether you ever thought not having a baby might be a sensible option.

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#223

There are so many pregnant couples between our friends. We mostly expect baby boom in our country. In news they say that we have biggest mortality in world due to covid. Well... People are probably not scared that much as agenda says.

Your observations of your own peer cohort are not informative. People get older, their friends get older, they all have babies at the same time. It appears to you like a baby boom but demographically it isn't data.

We already have enough vital statistics data to know that 2020 has clobbered the birth rate in the US.

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#224

Birthrates are a powerful, but lagging/post-hoc indicator of public policy effects. It's worth noting that we tend to associate high birthrates with poverty and negative social outcomes. Except, when rates are low we (western countries) use immigration from high-birthrate societies to shore up the population replacement rate, as the article notes. When you look at who is having kids in the US and Canada, the families…

> An (increasingly rare) person from a single-kid middle class home is not only a social minority, but has to create more of their own opportunities because they are an outsider to both societies. I don't follow: is a single kid from a middle class family an outsider to kids from other middle class families where they have 2 or 3 kids? I mean, I understand that middle class is neither rich nor poor, but what's the di…

To clarify, if you are a 3+ kid poor person, you will come from a family that is likely very poor. If you are a 3+ kid rich person, your parents are probably 95th percentile.

If you aren't from the neighbourhood for the first group, you're not trusted, and if you don't just know certain things, you aren't trusted by the second, because each group quietly assumes you're really part of the other. It's what we used to call class, and that's what I meant by being alien to each other.

There are exceptions. The most interesting ones are religious communities. Few people who belong to a church would accept being called poor no matter what their income was, and religious people with middle class jobs have lots of kids as well.

The other anomaly is the new institutional who have the iron stability of things like academic tenure, teachers unions, municipal and state employees, who only receive that stability at an age just as their fertility starts to wane, and usually after sacrificing it to get there.

It would be hard to argue that public policy has been anything but anti-natal for the last 50 years.

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#225
post #41

This is probably mostly covid related. But I personally don’t even consider kids. Kids are a life long commitment. I’d only make that commitment if I felt long term stability or at least optimism. Austerity and cynicism dominate the US right now though. It’s a recipe for strife, struggle, and things that rip families and countries apart. It doesn’t have to be this way in the US.

That's a very sensible perspective. Unfortunately, you will probably, as most people do, change your mind about this and decide to have children anyway.

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what I don't understand, if population growth is stagnant or declining, how is it these housing prices are reaching such heights?

You can find cheap housing, the problem is it's all in places where most people don't want to live. For example, Detroit, or any of thousands of small towns all over the US. Not picking on Detroit, it's just an obvious example of a large city that used to have a much larger population.

That's a sort of two way street though. In areas affordable housing exists, there often aren't many opportunities financially speaking, especially in the labor market.

It's one thing to live in a city, work for awhile to bank up capital, and then move somewhere with a low COL area to live comfortably with some supplemental income from the region with knowledge of that nest egg if investments you currently have.

It's an entirely different story to live in such an and accumulate enough capital to purchase a home. Often, jobs are few and far between that are competitive, even after adjusting for COL. Employers in these areas often have less competition for positions and therefor have more leverage. Acquiring debt in these areas when you start your career could make it difficult to climb out of. Its not true with all positions. A lot of healthcare positions can pay better in these areas due to what are essentially government subsidies through medicare/medicaid. You'll occasionally have some industrial organization doing specialized work people with advanced degrees can prosper in but they need to strategically target these areas.

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#227
post #88
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Couples are spending a lot of time together [...], so I'd expected that to result in more baby making But a counteracting force is that some couples think 9 months ahead and are afraid of delivering their baby in a COVID-overloaded hospital. COVID makes the opportunities for conception easier but adds to the stress and uncertainties of delivery and postnatal care. (So maybe more sex activity but also more contra cep…

> But a counteracting force is that some couples think 9 months ahead and are afraid of delivering their baby in a COVID-overloaded hospital. My wife works in a maternity ward. Babies are a high priority. They're fully prepared to deliver babies from covid-positive mothers. (And, yes, there's been plenty of covid-positive mothers.) And, because visitors are strictly limited, it's actually quite easy in the maternity…

During the height of severe covid cases in my area a lot of hospitals were not even allowing spouses in during delivery, so yes it was still relatively safe but definitely not the same.

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not even remotely true. The vast majority of humans had very very stable futures. Like tens of thousands of years stable. Civilization as we know it is very very recent and unstable.

The Cold War seems to have evaporated entirely from the collective imagination. For nearly half a century, people had a not unreasonable expectation that a nuke might end the world at any moment. Prior to that, you had WW2, the Depression, WW1, slums and brutal industrial factory jobs and before that mostly subsistence farming. The idea that life today is so precarious and difficult is absurd. We just aren’t used to…

The Cold War is still going on.

We are still at risk of nuclear destruction. Not only are the old weapons still around but we are making new ones for some crazy reason. (Check the Doomsday Clock, I'm not the only person who has noticed that atomic war is still threatening this planet.)

You have to take the long view: For approximately a million years we lived in very stable societies (as judged by the artifacts and art left behind.) In fact the people of Sentinel Island and some other places still live this way.

Very recently, since roughly 10k to 15k ago, we started doing agriculture and cities. Since then things have been rough: wars, famines, societies collapsing, etc.

Despite that, in the last 400-500 years, we have developed science and technology, which has increased and accelerated civilization but not stabilized it.

Now of course some people have had it pretty good for, say, the last century or so (I date it from the ready availability of hot and cold running water in the tub. If you can take a hot bath you're ahead of the game, IMO.)

And that's great! And more and more people are getting in on that, which is also great!

But if you want to say, as you did, that "Pretty much every single generation other than your parents (assuming you’re 25-40) had a tougher time and lived in a world with a more uncertain future. Every generation, going back millions of years." that's wrong. It's only going back a few thousands of years, at most, and then only for a small fraction of the people on Earth.

That's before the problem that luxury the few are enjoying is bought at the cost of the life or our whole planet! Is it really so great after all if some people get to live well for a generation or two but then everybody (that survives) has to live in post-apocalyptic hell?

Sentinel Island will be destroyed by the rising ocean in a few decades or so. The folks that have lived there for some 40,000 years will die or be forced to migrate. That's on us, not them.

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#229
post #41

This is probably mostly covid related. But I personally don’t even consider kids. Kids are a life long commitment. I’d only make that commitment if I felt long term stability or at least optimism. Austerity and cynicism dominate the US right now though. It’s a recipe for strife, struggle, and things that rip families and countries apart. It doesn’t have to be this way in the US.

I did not want to have kids. Then one day I realized that for the past 3 billion years my ancestors had been passing the torch. I was not going to be the one to let down the team. I felt a duty to give my genes a chance to fight it out in darwin's cage match. I can not guarantee my genes will win, but if I fail to reproduce I guarantee they will lose. Looking back, I am not sure this justification makes any sense, bu…

Kids might make your life better, but they probably would have been better off had you stuck to your plan of not having them.

Re: We Expect 300k Fewer Births Than Usual This Year in the US

#230
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's not overpopulated. this is a myth that has been going on since the 1970s: https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/12/12/16766872/overpop...

700 million people in the world face food scarcity at any one time. The world is overpopulated and its resources strained by the existing 7.4 billion humans (CO2 budget, natural resources reserves, etc).

More people than that are overweight. The total amount of food might be enough, but simply ill-distributed.
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