Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#221

Post by chrisseaton » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:51 PM UTC

qsort wrote: post #200

chrisseaton wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> None. This isn't a true statement. Companies are allowed to argue against unionisation. In the US isn't it even a constitutionally protected right to do so?

There's a huge difference between "argue against" and "actively try to sabotage". Here (Italy) unionization is a constitutionally protected right. My employer can try to persuade me not to join one, but is absolutely not allowed to retaliate against me if I do, discriminate basing on union membership, etc.

> My employer can try to persuade me not to join one

Yes, and isn't this therefore an example of 'tactics that are ok for a company to combat unions'?

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#222

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:51 PM UTC

_wldu wrote: post #145

In 1920 Appalachia, coal companies owned all the land, the homes and stores. They also paid workers with their own special money (that was useless everywhere else). The security companies they hired where armed and violent towards miners and their families. https://explorepartsunknown.com/west-virginia/coal-minings-d... Today, people can tour these old towns and learn the history of how the coal companies trapped and…

[deleted]

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#223

Post by EarthIsHome » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:51 PM UTC

_wldu wrote: post #145

In 1920 Appalachia, coal companies owned all the land, the homes and stores. They also paid workers with their own special money (that was useless everywhere else). The security companies they hired where armed and violent towards miners and their families. https://explorepartsunknown.com/west-virginia/coal-minings-d... Today, people can tour these old towns and learn the history of how the coal companies trapped and…

That "special money" had a name called "the scrip" [0].

Here's a really short video of what used to be a "company town" in Appalachia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBCxG_SCnQE

One of the host's grand dad was paid in scrip until the 1970s.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#224

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:53 PM UTC

kayodelycaon wrote: post #81

dalbasal wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those who identify strongly with unions, union-busting stuff like this is triggering... like "bringing up the war" in a war traumatised nation. I get that. But... 2020 isn't 1920 or even 1980. Fresh eyes might see more clearly. To the advantage of union organisers, mass communication and organisation is a lot easier today. Surveillance is easier too. IDK. Yes, Bezos does not want an amazon union and won't just le…

> Yes, Bezos does not want an amazon union and won't just let it happen without a fight. Same as always. Which is, if I recalled correctly, illegal.

Didn't stop Google from firing two employees in regards to union organizing. It doesn't matter what they did, if the NLRB is backing the employees, the company is in the wrong. Having to wait for a government agency to respond to your case of being wrongfully terminated is a PITA as it is. The fact that they determined the employee was conducting protected behavior which Google actively disagrees with just goes to show these companies are so large they're more than willing to just eliminate union organizers and wait for the government to tell them they broke the law as opposed to ensuring they follow it in the first place.

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#225

Post by neaden » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:55 PM UTC

JackFr wrote: post #165

neaden wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't force your workers to work in dangerous conditions with low pay and no voice in their work place, and maybe they wouldn't want to form a union.

What if I don't do any of those things? What if I run the most worker-centric paradise, with employee empowerment, great wages, benefits and conditions? And what if the national organization of an umbrella labor organization considers my non-union workforce as a threat to both their budget and their political power? And what if they provide materials and advisors promoting unionization, despite the fact that they are…

Sure, that could happen. Are you trying to argue that an employer should have a 100% right to have a union-free workplace?

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#226

Post by ska » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:55 PM UTC

pydry wrote: post #159

nkrisc wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could do whatever they're doing with their tech workers. Around these parts any talk of unionizing developers is usually meet with skepticism or derision. So whatever big tech is doing is keeping most of their tech workers happy and unwilling to unionize. They could do the same for their warehouse employees, but that would mean paying them very well and giving good benefits.

It's not really feasible to pay their box packers $120k / year.

Why would they have to? Tech workers at FAANG are on average paid probably in the 2x-3x range of average in their industry.

I suspect if amazon paid 2x average box packer wages and gave good breaks/benefits, unions wouldn't have much traction there, either.

The parallel isn't crazy (the economics might be, I haven't analyzed)

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#227

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:55 PM UTC

dnissley wrote: post #57

patwolfe wrote: post #18

Really disappointing to see the "Well, what did you expect?" comments already. Just because companies have been trying to prevent organization of their labor for over a century doesn't mean it isn't still messed up now. It's easy to say that it's just the way the world works from your desk, the people who are forced to work in Amazon's warehouses with terrible working conditions don't have that luxury.

Where do we draw the line? What tactics are ok for a company to use to combat unions if it doesn't want them? Or should companies just accept and work with any union that forms?

Do the things that don't make employees want to form a union...such as paying and not overworking them.

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#228

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:57 PM UTC

burkaman wrote: post #177

lacker wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the same token, the company’s management is free to fight union creation, by sharing anti-union messages. Freedom of speech and assembly on both sides.

Agreed, but in the American context, "fighting" union creation usually means a little more than just sharing informative messages.

"I heard Donny got both kneecaps busted after he passed out a union flyer last year" said the manager conveniently holding a baseball bat from the "baseball club" he just so happened to be involved in.

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#229

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:58 PM UTC

bildung wrote: post #194

dcgudeman wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really amazes me what some people think qualifies for a “human right”. If you are paying someone and they are doing something you told them not to do isn’t it your “human right” to stop paying them? Where do you draw the line with what a “human right” is?

* Where do you draw the line with what a “human right” is?* By looking into the declaration of human rights: https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Which is even more unenforceable than the 4th amendment.

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#230

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:59 PM UTC

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #135

dcgudeman wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really amazes me what some people think qualifies for a “human right”. If you are paying someone and they are doing something you told them not to do isn’t it your “human right” to stop paying them? Where do you draw the line with what a “human right” is?

> If you are paying someone and they are doing something you told them not to do isn’t it your “human right” to stop paying them? Obviously not. Real-world cases in point: * Firing people for being queer * Firing people for objecting to sexual harassment * Firing people for going to the bathroom

Just to add, most of the bathroom related ones are other employees complaining, not management. Management has to respond to that. This is because US culture insists on separate gender bathrooms.