Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips • Hacker News Board

Re: Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips

#221

Post by jschwartzi » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 4:07 PM UTC

CompAidedPoster wrote: post #127

imtringued wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I can tell a lot of parametric design software is also single threaded. I felt like this is was an opportunity where usage of multiple cores could make Freecad stand out a little bit. Except Freecad uses opencascade as their kernel and they require you to sign a CLA just to download the git repository. Considering that barrier to just cloning the code I just decided to not contribute anything. They do offer…

I suspect geometric kernels and 2D/3D renderers don't fall into the "easy to parallelize" category. Of course there are functions that use multiple threads, but it's not obvious how you could build the core system to do so. However the code in CAD software is often pretty old, it wasn't that long ago that many of these still used intermediate mode OpenGL and I wouldn't be surprised if some still do. In the same vein…

It seems like it depends a lot on your representation of the circuit network. If you consider each trace and PCB element as a node in a graph which maps the connections of the traces and PCB elements then you could parallelize provided you can describe the boundary conditions at each node. There's a degree to which they're interdependent, but there are also nodes at which the boundary condition is effectively constant and I think those would make good cut points for parallelization.

Re: Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips

#222

Post by monocasa » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 4:07 PM UTC

phire wrote: post #107

DCKing wrote: post #31

From a hobbyist and preservation perspective, it would be cool if this could be used to produce some form of the Apollo 68080 core to revive the 68k architecture a little bit, and build out the Debian m68k port [0][1]. The last "big" 68k chips were produced in 1995 (that would be a 350nm process?) so this could be hugely improved on 130nm. The 68080 core is currently implemented in FPGAs only and is already the faste…

You would have problems with licensing the 68k ISA. I believe freescale currently owns the architecture, and still manufactures some 68k microcontroller cores.

All the patents of all the non-Coldfire cores have expired, which is the mechanism for enforcing ownership over ISAs.

Re: Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips

#223

Post by monocasa » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 4:08 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #83

awelkie wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An open source WiFi chip would be super cool. I wonder how easy it would be to take the FPGA code from openwifi[0] and combine it with a radio on the same chip? [0] https://github.com/open-sdr/openwifi

The problem is that analogue IC design is a field that even digital IC design people regard as black magic. It's clearly possible for that to happen but the set of people who have the skills to do it is very narrow and most of them are probably prevented from doing it in their spare time by their employment agreements. I wonder how many "test chips" Google will let a non-expert team do to get it right? And whether th…

They're only allowing parts that stay within the bounds of the PDK (which only allows digital designs) for now.

Re: Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips

#224

Post by MiroF » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 4:12 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #73

leojfc wrote: post #53

Strategically, could this be part of a response to Apple silicon? Or put another way, Apple and Google are both responding to Intel/the market’s failure to innovate enough in idiosyncratic manner: - Apple treats lower layers as core, and brings everything in-house; - Google treats lower layers as a threat and tries to open-source and commodify them to undermine competitors. I don’t mean this free fabbing can compete…

Joel Spolsky calls this "Commoditizing your complement".

I'm guessing GP was clearly referencing that phrase, not unaware of it.

Re: Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips

#225

Post by kickopotomus » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 4:12 PM UTC

Taek wrote: post #151

I've spent some time in the chip industry. It is awful, backwards, and super far behind. I didn't appreciate the full power of open source until I saw an industry that operates without it. Want a linter for your project? That's going to be $50k. Also, it's an absolutely terrible linter by software standards. In software, linters combine the best ideas from thousands of engineers across dozens of companies building on…

I think the underlying issue here is that IC design is one or two orders of magnitude more complex than software. In my experience, the bar for entry into actual IC design is generally a masters or PhD in electrical engineering. There is a lot that goes into the design of an IC. Everything from the design itself to simulation, emulation, and validation. Then, depending on just how complex your IC is, you have to also think about integration with firmware and everything that involves as well.

Re: Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips

#226

Post by radicaldreamer » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 4:17 PM UTC

kickopotomus wrote: post #225

Taek wrote: post #151

I've spent some time in the chip industry. It is awful, backwards, and super far behind. I didn't appreciate the full power of open source until I saw an industry that operates without it. Want a linter for your project? That's going to be $50k. Also, it's an absolutely terrible linter by software standards. In software, linters combine the best ideas from thousands of engineers across dozens of companies building on…

I think the underlying issue here is that IC design is one or two orders of magnitude more complex than software. In my experience, the bar for entry into actual IC design is generally a masters or PhD in electrical engineering. There is a lot that goes into the design of an IC. Everything from the design itself to simulation, emulation, and validation. Then, depending on just how complex your IC is, you have to also…

And the cost for failure is a lot, lot higher... it’s a different model of development because there are many different challenges involved.

Re: Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips

#227

Post by stickfigure » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 4:21 PM UTC

BoysenberryPi wrote: post #178

ddevault wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't true. Writing open source software is more profitable: it's cheaper (because everyone works on it) and works better (because everyone works on it).

Do you have data to back this up? Because all accounts I've heard say that it's incredibly difficult to make money in open source.

it's incredibly difficult to make money in open source

This is true, but in the markets where open source thrives, it's even harder to make money in closed source. One talented programmer might make a new web framework, release it, and gain some fame and/or consulting hours. Good luck selling your closed source web framework, no matter how much VC backing you have.

Re: Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips

#228

Post by dehrmann » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 4:22 PM UTC

Taek wrote: post #151

I've spent some time in the chip industry. It is awful, backwards, and super far behind. I didn't appreciate the full power of open source until I saw an industry that operates without it. Want a linter for your project? That's going to be $50k. Also, it's an absolutely terrible linter by software standards. In software, linters combine the best ideas from thousands of engineers across dozens of companies building on…

This sounds like there might be non-trivial gains out there if more people looked at how HDL is compiled to silicon.

Re: Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips

#229

Post by jagger27 » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 4:25 PM UTC

Nokinside wrote: post #113

leojfc wrote: post #53

Strategically, could this be part of a response to Apple silicon? Or put another way, Apple and Google are both responding to Intel/the market’s failure to innovate enough in idiosyncratic manner: - Apple treats lower layers as core, and brings everything in-house; - Google treats lower layers as a threat and tries to open-source and commodify them to undermine competitors. I don’t mean this free fabbing can compete…

These are not related at all. Only common element is making silicon. Apple spends $100+ millions to design high performance microarchitecture to high-end process for their own products. Google gives tiny amount of help to hobbyists so that they can make chips for legacy nodes. Nice thing to do, nothing to do with Apple SoC. --- Software people in HN constantly confuse two completely different things (1) Optimized hig…

> few generations old

And by old, I mean /old/. 130 nm was used on the GameCube, PPC G5, and Pentium 4.

Re: Google offers free fabbing for 130nm open-source chips

#230

Post by mercer » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 4:30 PM UTC

mannykoum wrote: post #215

mercer wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the principles underlying FOSS are found everywhere. It's just that the idea of 'markets' and 'transactions' being the ubiquitous thing has infected our thinking.

Wholeheartedly agree. In parts of society where our distorted ideas of "productivity" and "success" are absent, people share more freely. The island where my family is from comes to mind (Crete, Greece). There—in the rural areas—people were able to deal with the 2007-2008 crisis a lot more effectively than they did in the cities—esp. compared to Athens. What I observed is that if someone didn't have enough, the rest…

Wonderful example!

I'd add that just looking at how families or circles of friends operate is also enlightening. The most cynical view is that these interactions are 'debt' based, but practically speaking that often isn't true either. I help my mother not because I calculate the effort she has invested in me or the value she brings me. I just do it because I love her and I don't need to think about how I've come to feel that way (which very well might be based on measurable behavior on her part).