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Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

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Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#221

Post by HenryBemis »

tsukurimashou wrote: post #182
goatinaboat wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it'll be a success Imagine being unable to buy food because an algorithm determined that “you violated our community standards” and there’s no way to contact them. One or two stories like that will kill Libra stone dead. If Libra ignored these rules, they'll put these guys (or at least a part of their offerings) out of business This is called money laundering, people go to jail for it.

>Imagine being unable to buy food because an algorithm determined that “you violated our community standards” and there’s no way to contact them Not to defend Facebook in any way but, isn't that already the case with a bank system automatically blocking your card for no valid reason and no way to call them over the weekend for example? (happened to me a few times)

Happened to me too, over weekend, when I shop online and my bank thinks there is something suspicious, they freeze the transaction (not block it), text me a Y/N question with the merchant&amount, and if I reply fast enough, it goes through. Otherwise the vendor cancels the request and I can 5mins later try again, and this time it goes through.

But that's my "main" bank. My secondary bank is not as user friendly and thus don't get an equal cut of my business.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#222

Post by JohnStrangeII »

Mengkudulangsat wrote: post #178
Iv wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either Zuckberg has a geeky naive understanding of financial institutions to think this will go easily, or he is ready to use blackmail material. Libra is something I wish we fight to the death.

What is so hateful about Libra when compared with the People Bank of China's digital currency project? When that is launched, any non-chinese can hold digital yuan without a bank account. Wouldn't the west want something equivalent for geopolitical reasons?

I don't think any of this is desirable. For me, it's similar to digital voting, I have strong technical concerns with crypto currencies. The cryptography behind them or the implementations will be broken. People claim that it's different now than it used to be. Every cryptographic system of the past has been broken, but now we have the computing power to make them future proof. There are no mathematical proofs for this assertion and there is no reason to believe it when you take into account the history of cryptography. Moreover, for some reasons the security margins in public cryptography tend to be far too low. I'd be surprised if many existing crypto currencies are even "quantum proof" yet - but attacks with quantum computers will likely be feasible in 10 - 20 years, if they aren't already for some state actors.

All it takes is one weakness in a protocol or one mathematical breakthrough in cryptanalysis, and the whole economy of a country could become vulnerable to attack and break down.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#223

Post by grecy »

speedplane wrote: post #155
csomar wrote: post #12

Here are some wild predictions I'm making + Many (or potentially all of the backers except Facebook) will withdraw from the alliance. + Facebook/Zuckerberg will defy the gov.s and launch Libra. + Libra might not dominate the world, but it'll be a success (at least a niche success) and it'll eat up some of the marketshare of these financial institutions. I think Zuckerberg has come (or already know) to the realization…

> Why would anybody use Western Union if they can send money through their Facebook for less or no fees? It's easier and more convenient too. So if I'm in the United States, and want to send some of my paycheck back to my family in Sudan so they could buy stuff, how could I do that with Libra?

> So if I'm in the United States, and want to send some of my paycheck back to my family in Sudan so they could buy stuff, how could I do that with Libra?

Well, you can't. Sudan blocks access to Facebook (I was just there). A VPN mostly worked, but it was painful. Sudan is also cut off from the international money markets because they are on the list of 5 "bad" countries according to the US. No foreign bank cards function at all.

Extremely nice and welcoming people. Friendliest I have ever met on the entire planet, hands down.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#224

Post by sweeneyrod »

asjw wrote: post #183
Mengkudulangsat wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is so hateful about Libra when compared with the People Bank of China's digital currency project? When that is launched, any non-chinese can hold digital yuan without a bank account. Wouldn't the west want something equivalent for geopolitical reasons?

Bank of China is not a private company it's run by the Chinese government. Facebook is not the US government.

I don't trust Facebook, but the Chinese government aren't exactly a shining paragon of virtue either.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#225

Post by tenpies »

e12e wrote: post #216
Mirioron wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine being unable to buy food because an algorithm determined that “you violated our community standards” and there’s no way to contact them. One or two stories like that will kill Libra stone dead. Imagine being unable to buy food because (an algorithm at) Visa or MasterCard decided that you violated their (community) standards. Oh wait, we don't have to imagine anything, because that's the world we already liv…

You're not in general paid in "visa". You either have a bank account and can withdraw cash, or you can get paid in cash. Now,if you're paid into your libra account (or indeed PayPal account, Apple pay, Google whatever) - then you're indeed at the whim of those companies use policies. Visa won't stop your card over a nude Pic on Facebook - but Facebook might suspend your account and your libra over it. Note that for e…

> You're not in general paid in "visa". You either have a bank account and can withdraw cash, or you can get paid in cash.

But we've already seen that you can effectively be "banned" from the financial system in the United States. Just look at Alex Jones and what California is trying to do against the NRA.

Regardless of what you think of them, it is very obvious that they are canaries. It should be very obvious to everyone that there is a political movement trying to weaponize the financial system against their opposition under the guise of re-defining terrorism and hate speech.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#226

Post by skywhopper »

csomar wrote: post #12

Here are some wild predictions I'm making + Many (or potentially all of the backers except Facebook) will withdraw from the alliance. + Facebook/Zuckerberg will defy the gov.s and launch Libra. + Libra might not dominate the world, but it'll be a success (at least a niche success) and it'll eat up some of the marketshare of these financial institutions. I think Zuckerberg has come (or already know) to the realization…

> Sending money across "borders" is hard only because governments made it so

On the contrary, it's much easier than it has ever been in human history to send money across borders, mostly due to government regulation of international finance.

For the absurdly wealthy, such regulation is a major pain of course. But the thing about the absurdly wealthy is... they can afford to deal with major pains.

For the rest of the human race, the real question to ask about these non-governmental currencies is: would you rather have your money be regulated by your local government and the governments of those you wish to trade with, or would you rather have your money be regulated by Facebook? I find this a very easy question to answer, personally.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#227

Post by zelphirkalt »

goatinaboat wrote: post #154
csomar wrote: post #12

Here are some wild predictions I'm making + Many (or potentially all of the backers except Facebook) will withdraw from the alliance. + Facebook/Zuckerberg will defy the gov.s and launch Libra. + Libra might not dominate the world, but it'll be a success (at least a niche success) and it'll eat up some of the marketshare of these financial institutions. I think Zuckerberg has come (or already know) to the realization…

it'll be a success Imagine being unable to buy food because an algorithm determined that “you violated our community standards” and there’s no way to contact them. One or two stories like that will kill Libra stone dead. If Libra ignored these rules, they'll put these guys (or at least a part of their offerings) out of business This is called money laundering, people go to jail for it.

To be honest, I think the same people, who ignore how corrupt and criminal Facebook is and has been for a long time, will be the people, who don't give a damn about whether someone cannot buy food. They just don't want to see it and want to keep going on in their comfort zone and not care about the consequences for others. So I think I have to disagree here, that this would be the nail in the coffin for Libra. I kid you not, there are still people out there, who did not hear or read about all the data scandals Facebook had and who still think it is all well and good and Mr. Zuckerberg is an idol for these kind.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#228

Post by HenryKissinger »

barnabee wrote: post #153
HenryKissinger wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be very easy for the government to shut down Bitcoin: - Shut down all bitcoin exchanges hosted in the United States - Make it illegal for banks, credit unions, and other commercial financial institutions to allow their clients to make transactions with a crypto exchange (regardless of the countries where the exchange is hosted), or a blockchain

This would not shut down bitcoin.

If you can't convert your bitcoin into fiat, then your only option is to use your btcs to purchase goods and services directly, which would further disincentivize businesses from accepting bitcoin as a form of payment. And if you can't send fiat to an exchange, you can't increase your holdings.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#230

Post by e12e »

tenpies wrote: post #225
e12e wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not in general paid in "visa". You either have a bank account and can withdraw cash, or you can get paid in cash. Now,if you're paid into your libra account (or indeed PayPal account, Apple pay, Google whatever) - then you're indeed at the whim of those companies use policies. Visa won't stop your card over a nude Pic on Facebook - but Facebook might suspend your account and your libra over it. Note that for e…

> You're not in general paid in "visa". You either have a bank account and can withdraw cash, or you can get paid in cash. But we've already seen that you can effectively be "banned" from the financial system in the United States. Just look at Alex Jones and what California is trying to do against the NRA. Regardless of what you think of them, it is very obvious that they are canaries. It should be very obvious to ev…

Now, there are separate issues here - the limit of banking for "bad actors" (terrorists, hate speech, democracy activists...).

That is mostly happening through the proper channels, that is the police and the judicial system do the policing and the legislative system makes the rules.

That in itself isn't a safeguard against abuse - but the other aspect is the privatization of utilities, and self-moderation that these companies do.

In between is the credit rating system, which allows for pretty arbitrarily denying banking services to individuals.

Still, if you are paid in a regulated currency, you still have an option to use cash. An access to legal tender.

With something like Libra, a private corporation, with a horrible track record wrt complaints/customer service can vanish your money because a friend shared a picture on your "wall", or some other entirely arbitrary thing that leads to account suspension.

You don't have to go out of your way to purchase fertilizer, diesel and nails - you could do a million different completely innocent things and still be locked out of your money - with no real recourse - including a viable legal recourse.

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