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Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

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Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#221

Post by foldr »

fuzz4lyfe wrote: post #207
michaelt wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my employer and I pay through the nose for my decent healthcare right now [...] Under your universal single-payer healthcare system, will I still be able to pay quadruple-through-the-nose to buy supplemental insurance Here in the UK, the private health insurance arranged by my employer costs them $450 per year. I don't know how much US insurance costs your employer, but I assume it's several times more, rather than s…

> I don't know how much US insurance costs your employer, but I assume it's several times more, rather than several times less, than mine pays! You also likely make half what I make and that's before taxes (my wife is from the UK, I looked at jobs over there and rural US IT salaries can beat London IT salaries). I prefer my deal to yours.

That’s true, but how much of that extra money you get to keep in the long run is determined by the health lottery. If you end up having cancer for 5 years, you can kiss it all goodbye.

But yes, one thing that's tough for Europeans who haven't lived in the US to comprehend is that Americans really do prefer being able to buy a bigger TV to having proper security when it comes to health care.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#222

Post by disordinary »

fuzz4lyfe wrote: post #207
michaelt wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my employer and I pay through the nose for my decent healthcare right now [...] Under your universal single-payer healthcare system, will I still be able to pay quadruple-through-the-nose to buy supplemental insurance Here in the UK, the private health insurance arranged by my employer costs them $450 per year. I don't know how much US insurance costs your employer, but I assume it's several times more, rather than s…

> I don't know how much US insurance costs your employer, but I assume it's several times more, rather than several times less, than mine pays! You also likely make half what I make and that's before taxes (my wife is from the UK, I looked at jobs over there and rural US IT salaries can beat London IT salaries). I prefer my deal to yours.

How much paid vacation do you get? Sick days? How much maternity leave does your wife get? What sort of employment protection do you have?

The difference isn't as clear cut as it seems on the surface.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#223

Post by jan_g »

CalRobert wrote: post #117
hestipod wrote: post #33

I was disabled by bad surgery and lost my career. No system that ostensibly should have helped, did. Denied. Denied. Denied. YEARS of adversarial, not default helpful, meetings and challenges and interviews. I saw people worse than me refused help. I saw real time as people who knew me for years or life, who respected me and my career choice helping others, decided I was a lazy mooch who wasn't trying hard enough, wa…

"get out of you don't like it" Nobody saying this has actually researched it. Too many people in the states are under the impression you can just up and move to a European country, no problem. One friendly-but-clueless acquaintance got flown back from Heathrow for asking the immigration officer about where to find jobs when she landed. If you don't/can't: * work in tech or medicine * go to university in Europe in a h…

But that's not an EU-only thing. In essence, immigration process boils down to this question:

- can you support yourself (i.e. have job contract or enough savings)?

Prove that you can and the rest is somewhat easy, providing you follow procedures, official documentation requirements, etc.

It's still by no means an easy task. Moving to another country is hard, one of the hardest things a person can do in their life.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#224

Post by foldr »

EdSharkey wrote: post #143
Sharlin wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh my god, I just read news about some "centrist" Democrats arguing against universal single-payer healthcare on the grounds that some segment of the working population already gets a nice healthcare package as a benefit, and somehow it would be unfair to those people if everyone was eligible to reasonable medical care. I mean, with Democrats like that, why do you even need Republicans?

I don't think Democrats (or Republicans when they take power) are clever/smart/kind/honest enough to offer universal single-payer healthcare without rationing. Is there an intent to take my health care choices away, and is that intent benevolent or malicious? You paint a very abstractly wonderful picture, so let's assume yes and benevolent if rationing is to be expected given the finite tax base. I still need more de…

Health care is always "rationed". In the US it's rationed by ability to pay. This is far worse both ethically and practically than any means of rationing it via a cost/benefit calculation.

As far as I know, no presidential candidate is proposing to stop people from buying private medical insurance, so your worries seem entirely unfounded in fact. Even in the UK, you can get private medical insurance if you want to.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#225

Post by fuzz4lyfe »

foldr wrote: post #221
fuzz4lyfe wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know how much US insurance costs your employer, but I assume it's several times more, rather than several times less, than mine pays! You also likely make half what I make and that's before taxes (my wife is from the UK, I looked at jobs over there and rural US IT salaries can beat London IT salaries). I prefer my deal to yours.

That’s true, but how much of that extra money you get to keep in the long run is determined by the health lottery. If you end up having cancer for 5 years, you can kiss it all goodbye. But yes, one thing that's tough for Europeans who haven't lived in the US to comprehend is that Americans really do prefer being able to buy a bigger TV to having proper security when it comes to health care.

If I lived in the London with the salaries they wanted to pay I'd be poor either way. It was enough to live in a tenement block. take public transport and eat cheap food. In the US I own a home, two cars, and support my entire family from just my salary. If I got cancer in the US I'd have be forced to live in a tenement block. take public transport and eat cheap food just like if I was "lucky" in the UK.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#226

Post by Lucadg »

hestipod wrote: post #33

I was disabled by bad surgery and lost my career. No system that ostensibly should have helped, did. Denied. Denied. Denied. YEARS of adversarial, not default helpful, meetings and challenges and interviews. I saw people worse than me refused help. I saw real time as people who knew me for years or life, who respected me and my career choice helping others, decided I was a lazy mooch who wasn't trying hard enough, wa…

It's really hard for me to understand how this system makes sense. I get it: if you make it easy for people they get lazy. But on the other hand you are making it too hard for productive people too and many will leave or not even come. What's the net result?

I grew up in Europe thinking USA was a great place to live. Now I wouldn't live there unless some very clear guarantees were made. It scares me. And I lived in countries many Americans would consider scary.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#227

Post by kalleboo »

fatbird wrote: post #84
fatbird wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because without minimal standards for sterilizing tools, hair dressers can spread lice. Basic licencing requirements give the municipality a chance to ensure that everyone washing hair has been told about basic hygienic standards for washing hair.

Leave it to the HN community to view a lice outbreak as an acceptable price to pay for the freedom of the market.

I'm from a western European nation (often referred to as "socialist") with none of that licensing BS and as far as I know we don't have perpetual lice outbreaks.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#228

Post by foldr »

fuzz4lyfe wrote: post #225
foldr wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s true, but how much of that extra money you get to keep in the long run is determined by the health lottery. If you end up having cancer for 5 years, you can kiss it all goodbye. But yes, one thing that's tough for Europeans who haven't lived in the US to comprehend is that Americans really do prefer being able to buy a bigger TV to having proper security when it comes to health care.

If I lived in the London with the salaries they wanted to pay I'd be poor either way. It was enough to live in a tenement block. take public transport and eat cheap food. In the US I own a home, two cars, and support my entire family from just my salary. If I got cancer in the US I'd have be forced to live in a tenement block. take public transport and eat cheap food just like if I was "lucky" in the UK.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by a "tenement block", but a typical tech salary in New York or San Fransisco isn't going to be enough to live in a town house. If you're in a city, you're going to be in an apartment, and that apartment is probably going to be in a block of apartments.

>If I got cancer in the US I'd have be forced to live in a tenement block. take public transport and eat cheap food just like if I was "lucky" in the UK.

That's an interesting perspective on public transport. Public transport is a far more pleasant way to get around London than driving :)

But, no, you could end up in a far worse situation than that in the US. Medical costs are very unpredictable and bear no relation to your wealth. You could easily end up bankrupt and unable to pay for vital medical treatment. I realize that most Americans like to live in complete denial of this fact, but it's inarguably true.

Also, even taking what you say at face value, it's quite incredible that you're satisfied with this. Why should you have to take a massive hit in living standards just because you get sick?

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#229

Post by m0llusk »

thdxr wrote: post #14

Who exactly is blaming the poor for their poverty?

Opponents of aiding the poor in ways that might cost money assert this kind of thing.

There are multiple issues woven in here, but one of the most basic is the concept of moral or metric based economics in which money flows toward those who are virtuous and work hard. To tax them or use some of that money is seen as stealing from the virtuous and limiting the total virtue of society.

This belief is in stark contrast to the verifiable function of aid as social stimulus. First of all, when the virtuous rich get incrementally more money they tend to save it because they don't really need it. This takes the money out of circulation, at least for a time. On the other hand the poor and middle class tend to immediately spend most of their money on strategic goods like education for their children. This not only puts the money back into circulation but also enables elites to capture a small amount of every transaction.

The important thing to take away is that social constructions like money and economies are not inherently connected to morality or reasonable metrics and really need to be thoroughly inspected and managed in order to get results that may correspond to some moral or metric projections.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#230

Post by danaris »

idighkwjt wrote: post #213
maxheadroom wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So the issue is that no other country in the world will take them? Even if we assume that’s true, that’s reason enough to be grateful. ...but you're ignoring the principle that people are flippantly telling them, " If you don't like, just leave! ", which is what brought about this discussion in the first place. It isn't a realistic option when such barriers exist. > People are literally dying to break into the coun…

So what if it’s not a real option? What are you saying? What should I take from that?

Not to tell people "if you don't like it, leave".
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