A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014) • Hacker News Board

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#221

Post by cheerlessbog » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 5:55 PM UTC

roland35 wrote: post #214

seventhtiger wrote: post #116

I tended to be in the top of the classes I was in and as far as I've seen my method was somewhat different. I also only take notes on paper, but more importantly, I throw all my notes out as soon as I finish writing them. For me studying is the act of writing the notes. The purpose of notes was never to read them later. That's why writing on paper is important to me. It's not about the qualities and convenience of th…

I may have well thrown away my notes! I often times had inaccuracies as I fell behind instructors (seriously how fast can they write on blackboards!?) and lost important context which made sense at the time but not later. But you are correct, writing things down helps commit things to memory, plus there were always some funny doodles to look back on. Too bad I can't doodle anymore in work meetings, it isn't too profe…

Looking back, the purpose of the lectures was to give a general overview of the themes and boundaries of the course. You note that down. Then go read the textbooks and do exercises to actually learn the material. As you say, in a fast paced technical class you cannot rely on learning the material in lectures.

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#222

Post by NoodleIncident » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 6:30 PM UTC

wycy wrote: post #131

rcthompson wrote: post #32

Sounds like the actual learning secret is "don't take verbatim notes", and the only relevance of the laptop is that it makes it much easier to take verbatim notes. I've pretty much only ever taken notes with a laptop, but I always take notes in the "digest and summarize" style, never recording the speaker's words verbatim, and it's worked great for me. (It wasn't a conscious decision; it's just how I take notes.)

It's not just the verbatim aspect, part of the issue actually is the distinction between laptop and paper. When you hand write notes, another piece of information you store in your mind is where on the page you wrote it, and what it looks like. Then, when you need to recall, you can often remember where it was on the page and generally what it looked like there, and that can help remember the actual content.

Why would those factors be any different when taking notes on a laptop? It is still on the screen/document somewhere, and it still looks like something.

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#223

Post by Bedon292 » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 6:35 PM UTC

For me the best was using a Surface and One Note. It allowed me to load the slides right into One Note, and write notes right on top of them. Hand written if necessary, but preferably typed for legibility.

Now, this isn't without issues, as being on a computer allows for easier distractions. But as long as one stays focused on the class, it can work quite well.

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#224

Post by aeternus » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 6:43 PM UTC

NoodleIncident wrote: post #222

wycy wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just the verbatim aspect, part of the issue actually is the distinction between laptop and paper. When you hand write notes, another piece of information you store in your mind is where on the page you wrote it, and what it looks like. Then, when you need to recall, you can often remember where it was on the page and generally what it looked like there, and that can help remember the actual content.

Why would those factors be any different when taking notes on a laptop? It is still on the screen/document somewhere, and it still looks like something.

The problem is that word processors and word wrap make it too easy to move text, destroying the absolute and sometimes even relative position.

Much of human memory evolved to remember locations, and almost all of the top memory competitors use locality association ("Memory Palace"/loci) as their primary method.

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#225

Post by misiti3780 » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 7:02 PM UTC

unimpressive wrote: post #210

TimTheTinker wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a high school teacher who described what he called a failsafe study method: (1) Take copious notes during lectures, save them in a binder. (2) Every weekday (5 days/week) during the term, read through all class notes from beginning to end. (3) Assuming you've done the above, you won't have to study for a test. But this would only work for memorization-heavy material where all the content is presented during lec…

>I had a high school teacher who described what he called a failsafe study method:... At this point you should just use spaced repetition. It's what I did, it has the same effects for a lot less work.

you used SR in high school?

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#226

Post by kevstev » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 7:04 PM UTC

seventhtiger wrote: post #116

I tended to be in the top of the classes I was in and as far as I've seen my method was somewhat different. I also only take notes on paper, but more importantly, I throw all my notes out as soon as I finish writing them. For me studying is the act of writing the notes. The purpose of notes was never to read them later. That's why writing on paper is important to me. It's not about the qualities and convenience of th…

I did something a bit different- at the end of the term, I would rewrite my notes. A v2.0 of them. In the process I was going over all of my previous notes, but by that point I had a much greater understanding of how all the things fit together, which details were important, etc... and my new set of notes, which were also not written under duress of trying to keep up with the teacher, were much better written.

The second set was always much cleaner, much better organized, and much more deeply ingrained in my brain.

As an aside, when I went to college, my first semester Computer Science teacher was vehemently anti-notetaking in class. He would chastise people who were taking notes either on their laptops, or in notebooks, saying "The slides will be online!" I really struggled that first semester, and found it hard to pay attention, hard to retain the information, hard to even understand what he was talking about, and it took me awhile to realize just how powerful the act of taking notes was.

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#227

Post by rcthompson » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 7:15 PM UTC

logifail wrote: post #83

rcthompson wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not, but most people (or at least, most people who grew up with computers) can type faster than they can write, so the operative comparison is between frantically writing and typing at a comfortable pace.

I've never taken notes on a laptop. For those who do, are you typing every single word that the speaker says? I've taken notes on paper during many, many talks. I don't write down every word that's spoken. Isn't the cognitive load likely due to to deciding what content to record, not due to controlling the brain-hand-pencil-paper interface / brain-hands-keyboard interface (as it were)?

The article is saying that typing the speaker's words verbatim is exactly what most people do when taking notes on a laptop, even when they are explicitly warned that it's a bad idea, whereas it's generally not possible to do so when writing notes, without some kind of shorthand.

In any case, that's not the point: regardless of what text you decide to record in your notes, it's faster to do so by typing it than writing it for most people. That means that if you switch from writing to typing your notes but continue taking notes in the same style, you should in theory have more time to figure out what to write without falling behind the speaker or needing to rush your typing.

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#228

Post by ExtremisAndy » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 7:22 PM UTC

kevstev wrote: post #226

seventhtiger wrote: post #116

I tended to be in the top of the classes I was in and as far as I've seen my method was somewhat different. I also only take notes on paper, but more importantly, I throw all my notes out as soon as I finish writing them. For me studying is the act of writing the notes. The purpose of notes was never to read them later. That's why writing on paper is important to me. It's not about the qualities and convenience of th…

I did something a bit different- at the end of the term, I would rewrite my notes. A v2.0 of them. In the process I was going over all of my previous notes, but by that point I had a much greater understanding of how all the things fit together, which details were important, etc... and my new set of notes, which were also not written under duress of trying to keep up with the teacher, were much better written. The se…

Oh, this is a brilliant idea that seems so obvious as I’m here reading it, but had never occurred to me before. Yes! I’ve always felt that my biggest problem in learning is that I never do anything to really verify I have a truly solid grasp of the material. I read, take notes, convince myself I have some level of understanding, and pat myself on the back for achieving that much. But I’ve got a feeling that if I’d overcome my laziness enough to read, take notes, reflect on my notes, then write a more polished version 2.0 of them as you mentioned, I would definitely take my conceptual understanding to a much deeper level. Thank you for this!

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#229

Post by nicoburns » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 7:23 PM UTC

seventhtiger wrote: post #116

I tended to be in the top of the classes I was in and as far as I've seen my method was somewhat different. I also only take notes on paper, but more importantly, I throw all my notes out as soon as I finish writing them. For me studying is the act of writing the notes. The purpose of notes was never to read them later. That's why writing on paper is important to me. It's not about the qualities and convenience of th…

I purposely don't take notes in classes because I find it more productive to spend my energy listening (and thinking). And I find it hard to concentrate when I'm writing. I also then go back to primary source material when revising.

I think this is actually a pretty similar strategy to yours, and definitely one that I've found to be effective.

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#230

Post by mensetmanusman » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 7:24 PM UTC

seventhtiger wrote: post #116

I tended to be in the top of the classes I was in and as far as I've seen my method was somewhat different. I also only take notes on paper, but more importantly, I throw all my notes out as soon as I finish writing them. For me studying is the act of writing the notes. The purpose of notes was never to read them later. That's why writing on paper is important to me. It's not about the qualities and convenience of th…

It’s not inefficient. You are exactly describing the grammar phase of learning, i.e. brute memorization which is absolutely critical before the dialectic phase. (The trivium is complete when you understand the topic well enough to teach and engage using rhetoric).