Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

scientificamerican.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 243 posts

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#81

Post by beobab »

atoav wrote: post #73
rcthompson wrote: post #32

Sounds like the actual learning secret is "don't take verbatim notes", and the only relevance of the laptop is that it makes it much easier to take verbatim notes. I've pretty much only ever taken notes with a laptop, but I always take notes in the "digest and summarize" style, never recording the speaker's words verbatim, and it's worked great for me. (It wasn't a conscious decision; it's just how I take notes.)

It is also something else: if you take a paper note you have to actively archive it in some way at which point you might come into contact with it again. Searching for a old note on paper is like browsing backwards through the history of notes. All of that would be entirely possible with a computer, but it would result in an inconvenient interface, where you can’t just search for a word or tag. I have tried many ways…

I suppose in this day and age, with OCR being as good as it is, you could take a picture with your phone, and be able to search on text in the picture.

Now I think about it, I seem to recall Evernote doing something like that a while back. Mind you, I don't know how easy it is to get the meta-data back out.

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#82

Post by playpause »

iliketosleep wrote: post #52
rcthompson wrote: post #32

Sounds like the actual learning secret is "don't take verbatim notes", and the only relevance of the laptop is that it makes it much easier to take verbatim notes. I've pretty much only ever taken notes with a laptop, but I always take notes in the "digest and summarize" style, never recording the speaker's words verbatim, and it's worked great for me. (It wasn't a conscious decision; it's just how I take notes.)

> Sounds like the actual learning secret is "don't take verbatim notes", and the only relevance of the laptop is that it makes it much easier to take verbatim notes. Yes, that's pretty much what it explains. The title "don't take notes with a laptop" is rather misleading. It's a well known fact that summarizing requires the learner's brain to actively process the information, as opposed to passively receiving informa…

I think “frantically writing” is the wrong way of looking at it. It implies the mental systems that control the complex process of handwriting could easily be reapplied to ‘listening and comprehending’ if only they could be freed from their task. This seems unlikely to me, having read a few studies demonstrating that doodling can improve focus, especially in people diagnosed with ADHD – it seems like our dexterity control systems can actually be a source of frustration and distraction if they’re not given something to do. In my own anecdata, engaging my hands in writing the actual information I’m trying to learn works even better than doodling. I see it as rallying the different parts of my brain to work together to maximise focus and cognition on one target, while doodling is more like giving a kid a toy to shut them up. I might be reaching though.

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#83

Post by logifail »

rcthompson wrote: post #74
logifail wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It wouldn't surprise me if summarizing on a laptop leads to better outcomes than using handwriting, as more cognitive resources would be available to process the information (rather than frantically writing) Q: Why should "frantically writing" be worse than - say - frantically typing?

It's not, but most people (or at least, most people who grew up with computers) can type faster than they can write, so the operative comparison is between frantically writing and typing at a comfortable pace.

I've never taken notes on a laptop. For those who do, are you typing every single word that the speaker says?

I've taken notes on paper during many, many talks. I don't write down every word that's spoken.

Isn't the cognitive load likely due to to deciding what content to record, not due to controlling the brain-hand-pencil-paper interface / brain-hands-keyboard interface (as it were)?

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#84

Post by jedberg »

I did my final year of college three years after my first three years. In the first three years I took paper notes and got terrible grades. In the fourth year I used a laptop. The laptop however was not great, so it had no internet and I just used a full screen editor window to take notes, so no distractions, and no verbatim writing because I couldn't type that quickly.

Everyone learns differently. You just have to find what works for you. But no internet is key.

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#85

Post by johnchristopher »

2rsf wrote: post #80
linker3000 wrote: post #36

I'm 53 and work in IT for a 'funky' learning/media company, ranking among the seniors in both age and position. I have a customised Cornell Notes* Word doc template, and I run off batches of 5-10 sheets to take to meetings and training sessions. My colleagues typically turn up with their tablets, surfaces, laptops, phones and 'multitask', however a few have started to adopt my method - it's been particularly useful f…

> It's also very easy to drill down through Quarterly reviews and link chains of historic comments 'on the fly' I have never heard about Cornell Notes, it seems like the missing piece I was looking for to convince myself to move back to pen and paper since I too feel that handwriting makes you remember and understand better. But there are two things I am missing over OneNote - Search capabilities, how do you drill do…

> - Non language items like URLs, code snippets or command line parameters- in one note I simply copy paste them, how do you write them ?

Typically I don't write this kind of information down ; I reference them from the original document.

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#86

Post by Cederfjard »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #34

In lectures, note-taking at all should be avoided, most of the time. Most lectures cover material that is presented very clearly in accompanying materials, books or the internet. The idea I could do a better job than those authors while listening to the stuff for the first time is ludicrous. And at least for me it doesn't help recollection or focus to write notes while listening, and many students report they can tak…

>In lectures, note-taking at all should be avoided, most of the time.

That's a very strong statement that I guess is based on your own personal experience?

If I can provide my own subjective opinion and educated guess, I do agree that taking notes verbatim feels close to pointless. You need to take in what you're hearing and grok it before you jot down your summary. Then you can go revisit your notes later to practice, or even better try to recall without looking at them first, and then check to corroborate.

>The idea I could do a better job than those authors while listening to the stuff for the first time is ludicrous.

I don't think anyone has suggested this to be the case. Even though it doesn't work that way for you, the point of note-taking even when the information is available from other materials is to facilitate retention and understanding, not to produce superior source material. I do believe it is effective for this purpose, for most people.

All through my education, I never really bothered to listen to teachers and lecturers and basically never took notes. I just read course literature and tried to grok the main concepts, and it worked wonders for getting me through tests and exams. Longer term retention of what I learned was atrocious though. Now as an adult I take notes and study in a much more disciplined way, and it's so much more effective long term that it leaves me with a sense of regret that I didn't know or realize all this as a kid.

Just my two cents.

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#87

Post by Aromasin »

kendallpark wrote: post #27

My current (digital) handwritten note setup: - iPad Pro with (Gen 1 :sadface:) Apple Pencil. - Screen protector that gives a significant amount of friction to the screen so that it feels closer to paper. [1] - Goodnotes 5 or Notability (I use both--depends on the circumstances). [2] - A rule: iPad is solely a reading/studying/note-taking device. No keyboard, no social media apps. - Bonus: Twelve South BookBook case.…

Mine is a similar setup, except with Windows architecture.

- Surface Go using stylus.

- OneNote for note taking

- ColdTurkey app (completely locks you out of blacklisted apps for a set amount of time [I've tried to crack it - I couldn't])

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#88

Post by iliketosleep »

playpause wrote: post #82
iliketosleep wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sounds like the actual learning secret is "don't take verbatim notes", and the only relevance of the laptop is that it makes it much easier to take verbatim notes. Yes, that's pretty much what it explains. The title "don't take notes with a laptop" is rather misleading. It's a well known fact that summarizing requires the learner's brain to actively process the information, as opposed to passively receiving informa…

I think “frantically writing” is the wrong way of looking at it. It implies the mental systems that control the complex process of handwriting could easily be reapplied to ‘listening and comprehending’ if only they could be freed from their task. This seems unlikely to me, having read a few studies demonstrating that doodling can improve focus, especially in people diagnosed with ADHD – it seems like our dexterity co…

You make some valid points, and physically writing may indeed be helpful to particular cohorts. But for people like myself, who are slow writers and poor multitaskers, the act of physically writing takes attention away from the act of listening, meaning that I miss a lot of information. The core issue is that we all have different strengths and weaknesses, which is why there is no such thing as "one size fits all" when it comes to learning.

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#89

Post by NeedMoreTea »

linker3000 wrote: post #36

I'm 53 and work in IT for a 'funky' learning/media company, ranking among the seniors in both age and position. I have a customised Cornell Notes* Word doc template, and I run off batches of 5-10 sheets to take to meetings and training sessions. My colleagues typically turn up with their tablets, surfaces, laptops, phones and 'multitask', however a few have started to adopt my method - it's been particularly useful f…

I'm also in my 50s, and have been carrying A4 hardback notebooks around since 80s or 90s, that I use similarly. I add a margin, leave 5 pages at the front for indexing, and I've adopted a few highlighting habits to cross reference and link for easy reference later.

It's my definitive memory, and has been worth it to answer the months later questions of why we did or didn't include some feature, or designed something as we did. It's also where I think by pencil, so there's lots of plans, hierarchies, thoughts too. Those rough scribbles go at the back.

The few times I've tried to improve on this either by tech or organisers like filofax etc, it's quickly proved much worse or slower. The old Psion 5 got closest! Simply happy to stay old world now. It works, it's quick, and never needs charging.

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#90

Post by sumodm »

Here is what I discovered in my experience if this helps someone, completely anecdotal.

Paper vs Computer

1. Paper:

   - Ability to spread things out, to take stock of a big project, simultaneous refer back, draw between two pages etc.
   - Faster draw diagrams etc, partially fixed, see article about thing student who used latex/inkscape to draw. 
   - Faster to connect up different ideas.
2. Computer:

   - Search: When I need to go back to find that idea ('keyword'), when you have hundreds of sheets is super easy.
   - Faster to type.
   - Easier to organize, I just copy paste and create folders etc. I use Latex and org-mode.
Few Tips

1. Cornell'esque techniques definitely help when revising and organizing.

2. Taking some notes actually helps you to focus better. Reduces random day dreaming, skipping crucial info (which leads to rest of lecture/meeting being harder to understand) etc.

3. Take condensed notes gives me time to listen and makes short notes.

4. But especially in Math related areas, there is no way to assimilate information in one sitting. I often used to hear a random English sentence, only to later realize that some word there had a specific mathematical meaning and it had much deeper meaning than I initially understood. Over-simplified example, xyz is a group. Group here being group theoretic group.

5. Video Recordings of classes and reviewing them and then scribing watching the videos helps a lot, esp for the likes of Advanced CS/EE courses.

6. Writing is learning, verification and long term information storage at the same time. One of my advisors once told me, when I asked him how do you store so much information about various papers etc, "Thats why I wrote that book".

Post reply on HN