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Apple blocks Google from running its internal iOS apps

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Re: Apple blocks Google from running its internal iOS apps

#221

Post by gojomo »

Deimorz wrote: post #177
gojomo wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for a link to a readable version of the agreement! It looks to me like "Permitted Users" includes "contractors" like those in a compensated research panel, and thus the Facebook/Google uses are plausibly enabled under the program.

Teenagers being paid with gift cards are absolutely not plausibly considered "contractors".

That depends on whether they entered into a contract, doesn't it?

And technically, entering a contract doesn't even require a signature – just a "meeting of the minds" to exchange considerations of value, like "my data" or "cash value gift cards". (And, these programs may have included actual signed agreements – I haven't seen strong reporting either way on that.)

Re: Apple blocks Google from running its internal iOS apps

#222

Post by baroffoos »

abraham wrote: post #142
_bxg1 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to feel that way, and I used Android for years for that reason. But since switching to an iPhone, I've found that what I really want from my phone is not a totally open platform, but a tool that's simple, secure, and effective. Something I don't have to mess with, something I can trust to do its job and respect my privacy and be pleasant to interact with. They tried going that direction a bit with macOS when t…

Android isn't a "totally open platform". By default you can only install apps from the Play Store and Google exercices a fair amount of editorial control over apps.

On the latest android its a huge pain to install fdroid. The only way I could find was installing the system fdroid package through the recovery thing because android doesn't just allow you to install 3rd party apps, you have to get an existing app to request permission to install 3rd party apps and none of the default ones do so unless you already have fdroid you can't install it. Really unethical.

Re: Apple blocks Google from running its internal iOS apps

#223

Post by roenxi »

It isn't relevant here if Apple is justified or not, if Google is trustworthy or not or if terms of service are enforceable or not.

This is what might be called a classic Stallman effect, where it has been pointed out since the mid-90s that if you don't have a few basic freedoms [0] then at some point an external party will shut you down for reasons you don't like. Google is in a lousy strategic position on this one because they gave up software freedom because Apple didn't seem like a threat at the time. They are lucky their internal apps were not being particularly targeted, I suppose.

This is why a good military plans on capabilities, not intents.

[0] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html

Re: Apple blocks Google from running its internal iOS apps

#225

Post by tedivm »

nostrademons wrote: post #110
jdietrich wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth bearing in mind that Google pay Apple billions of dollars a year to be the default search engine on iOS. To my eyes, Apple clearly have the upper hand in this relationship. https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/3063669/google-is-...

Android has 85% of the worldwide smartphone market. Apple doesn't exactly have the upper hand in the relationship, but they have enough leverage to make it sting if they decide not to cooperate and to force a reasonable settlement. In my mind, a reasonable settlement includes not installing spyware on users' iPhones through the enterprise development program, so it looks like they're doing precisely that.

Worldwide, sure, but look at developed countries where most of the profit comes from. In the US in 2018 63% were iPhones and 36% were Android[1]. Android usage is even going down in some places, such as Canada where it went from 46% to 39% between 2017 and 2018.

[1] https://deviceatlas.com/blog/android-v-ios-market-share#us

Re: Apple blocks Google from running its internal iOS apps

#226

Post by torstenvl »

gojomo wrote: post #171
mikeryan wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except as set forth in Section 2.1, You may not use, distribute or otherwise make Your Internal Use Applications available to Your Customers or to any third parties in any way (excluding Your Internal Use Application that is for use on macOS) It’s behind the developer wall but the whole thing is here. https://download.developer.apple.com/Documentation/License_A...

Thanks! But note that section 2.1 expressly allows deployment to "Permitted Users", and "Permitted Users" is defined to include "contractors... who have written and binding agreements with You or Your Permitted Entity to protect Your Internal Use Application from unauthorized use". Compensated members of these apps' research panels are quite literally "contractors" of FB/Google, and possibly even under written contra…

"Internal Use Applications or Passes shall not be . . . distributed or made available to . . . contractors (except for contractors who are developing the Internal Use Application or Pass for You on a custom basis and therefore need to use or have access to such Internal Use Application or Pass)"

Re: Apple blocks Google from running its internal iOS apps

#227

Post by pixl97 »

gojomo wrote: post #154
javagram wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They weren’t. See the terms at https://apple.stackexchange.com/a/193060 “solely for internal use by Your Employees or Permitted Users, or as otherwise expressly permitted in Section 2.1(f).” https://github.com/nicwise/apple-agreements/blob/master/appl... 2.1(f) Allow Your Customers to use Your Internal Use Applications on Deployment Devices, but only (i) on Your physical premises and/or on Your Permitted Entity’s phy…

Thank you for a link to a readable version of the agreement! It looks to me like "Permitted Users" includes "contractors" like those in a compensated research panel, and thus the Facebook/Google uses are plausibly enabled under the program.

My personal belief is FB/Google would much rather take the loss of their enterprise cert rather than consider the end user contractors. For example child labor laws might come back to bite them in the ass. Also non-vetting of contractors. Some portion of these 'contractors' are going to be rather terrible people and now they have a business association with them, possibly within violation of state laws.

Re: Apple blocks Google from running its internal iOS apps

#228

Post by mjw1007 »

nerdjon wrote: post #11
dombili wrote: post #4

I don't want to pass judgment on whether Google (or in the previous case, Facebook) was in the wrong, but it doesn't sit well with me that Apple wields so much power on what software their phones can run after it sells them. You may very well think that they're using their power sparingly and benevolently, but who is to say that will be the case next time around?

You buy an iPhone knowing full well that Apple has this control, and for many people is the reason they buy their iPhone. So far they have used the power sparingly, at the end of the day it could have been a cute cat app and did nothing wrong but it still broke Apple's terms that these companies agreed to and Apple acted accordingly.

I would bet good money that the large majority of iPhone users don't know that Apple has this much control (ie, that they can decide whether you're allowed to install custom apps provided by your employer).

Re: Apple blocks Google from running its internal iOS apps

#229

Post by stayman »

jwildeboer wrote: post #194
nahzgah wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don’t understand people who are acting offended that Apple is enforcing the clear terms of service it laid out. I don't understand why they were so happy when this happened to Facebook but now they are offended because it happened to Google. Oh wait, yes I do understand why. o:-)

I for one welcome the consistency that Apple shows. And I hope that people recognise how these walled gardens have their own laws, judges and prisons.

I do remember apple giving uber a second chance though on user privacy [1]. Maybe they've learned maybe they're trying harder, maybe they just see the goodwill benefit from being seen as the good on privacy company. I'm not sure

[1] https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4438800/Uber-s-CEO-...

Re: Apple blocks Google from running its internal iOS apps

#230

Post by olegbl »

dannyw wrote: post #212
olegbl wrote: post #42

Now I'm really curious if they're going to casually shut down doordash (afaik the doordash app for the dashers uses enterprise certs).

It’s fine, dashers are contractors and contractors are expressly allowed.

I have a hard time seeing the distinction between people paid by Google or Facebook to share their phone usage data vs people paid by DoorDash to deliver food. You're probably right though.
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