$1T is leaving Britain because of Brexit • Hacker News Board

Re: $1T is leaving Britain because of Brexit

#221

Post by _sfsa » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 9:36 PM UTC

bayesian_horse wrote: post #170

pow_pp_-1_v wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know how to take this - one way to look at it is democracy won and people spoke Democracy failed here. People elect representatives for a reason. Normal people shouldn't be expected to understand the complexities and nuances of a public policy decision. It should have been the responsibility of the elected representatives to have reasoned discussions, to weigh the pros and cons etc. and finally make decisio…

That's not so much the problem here. The problem is that the voters answered the wrong question, as a result of a bad binary choice and lying campaigns. If voters had known what they are in for, they wouldn't have voted to leave.

Have you asked each and every person to come to your conclusion? I voted "leave" because I don't want unelected officials like Junker deciding the law of the land in a UK.

Perhaps you should get more informed and read up on the Kalergi Plan.

Re: $1T is leaving Britain because of Brexit

#222

Post by hkt » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 9:37 PM UTC

NicoJuicy wrote: post #97

growlist wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might find this of interest: https://www.qlts.com/blog/why-english-law-governs-most-inter...

> QLTS is the official fast-track route that enables foreign lawyers to qualify as solicitors in England and Wales. Not really an independent opinion so it seems. It would surprise me if they suggested something else, considering their business. Everyone can find someone to agree with on the internet :) International people have been judged in "Den Haag" a lot more than anywhere else. Here are my "opinionated" source…

The examples you have given are interesting because they are recent and the province of international agreements. I wonder if English law is used widely in other places and for different agreements as part of a legacy of empire?

Re: $1T is leaving Britain because of Brexit

#223

Post by scottybowl » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 9:38 PM UTC

JAlexoid wrote: post #214

nullify88 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a lot of misinformation and unrealistic promises made by the Leave campaign that swayed the vote in their favour. The campaign was also unlawful due to illegal overspending which May ignores. If the public were told the truth about what we'd be sacrificing for "sovereignty", I don't think we'd be here.

Overspending is hardly the issue... People that are angry at the "polish immigrants" are no better about it today, than yesterday.

Read up on the Kalergi Plan

Re: $1T is leaving Britain because of Brexit

#224

Post by hkt » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 9:38 PM UTC

flexie wrote: post #53

hkt wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have reliable courts which are known for their independence. We also have alternatives to courts - called Alternative Dispute Resolution mechanisms - which operate out of London mostly, and are known to be free of political interference etc. See http://www.lcia.org/ for an example. You'd write an ADR into a contract and use these people if you didn't want to use our courts. And our courts respect this arrangement…

So do virtually all other Northern and Western European countries. What you have that they don't have is the English language as the native language. Non UK lawyers (as me) chose to UK arbitration etc. because of the language, not because we trust your courts more than the German, French or Dutch courts. Yes, arbitration and other alternative dispute resolution mechanisms in most other countries could be conducted in…

Good point, but then why not the US, Canada, etc?

I suggested in another comment a historical component to this, namely the legacy of the British empire. It seems logical that having exported our governance for a long time our legal system would be well known through the world too.

Re: $1T is leaving Britain because of Brexit

#225

Post by pseudolus » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 9:52 PM UTC

hkt wrote: post #224

flexie wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do virtually all other Northern and Western European countries. What you have that they don't have is the English language as the native language. Non UK lawyers (as me) chose to UK arbitration etc. because of the language, not because we trust your courts more than the German, French or Dutch courts. Yes, arbitration and other alternative dispute resolution mechanisms in most other countries could be conducted in…

Good point, but then why not the US, Canada, etc? I suggested in another comment a historical component to this, namely the legacy of the British empire. It seems logical that having exported our governance for a long time our legal system would be well known through the world too.

>Why not the US, Canada, etc?

English law tends to be incorporated into contracts that are made among countries in Europe, Africa, Asia and parts of the Caribbean. However, contracts made between US entities and other entities frequently incorporate the law of the State of New York and even refer all disputes to courts in the City and County of New York so venue is locked down. There's also an increasing tendency for contracts (other than those for services) to incorporate as a legal framework the "United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods" [0].

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_on_C...

Re: $1T is leaving Britain because of Brexit

#226

Post by JAlexoid » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 10:07 PM UTC

lazyjones wrote: post #60

matthewmacleod wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps they're just not trying to see only the drawbacks and ignore successful non-members in Europe like Switzerland and Norway. That's a bit of a misrepresentation, because those "successful non-members" are members of the single market, which is currently something that the UK is actively trying to leave. Don't underestimate what's happening here – it would have been possible to execute Brexit in a relatively con…

> That's a bit of a misrepresentation, because those "successful non-members" are members of the single market, which is currently something that the UK is actively trying to leave. The UK is trying to leave the EU and stay in the single market. The EU is trying to deny the UK access to the single market.

"Single market" includes the free movement of people. Norway is in the single market, Turkey is in customs union.

UK government has been trying to reframe this into an FTA, which it isn't.

There's also Good Friday Agreement... that is an international treaty.

Re: $1T is leaving Britain because of Brexit

#227

Post by JAlexoid » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 10:14 PM UTC

repolfx wrote: post #190

matthewmacleod wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the UK is not planning or attempting to stay in the single market. That is not government policy, it is not the basis of the withdrawal agreement, and it is not even the policy of the opposition.

It was the original proposal. Rewind the clock to the start of 2016 and there were leave campaigners and prominent remainer politicians both suggesting that. The UK is not actually attempting to terminate all economic and cultural collaboration with the rest of Europe. Nobody is talking about it anymore because the EU refused point blank to even contemplate it and stated very loudly and clearly they'd rather die than…

The original proposal was - UK gets the right to access all benefits of trading with EU, including services and passporting rights(I literally watched this on TV at the time in London)... but skip on the freedom of movement and customs union.

You know... Cherry pick which of the four core principles of EU UK wanted to participate in.

So... Maybe your Brexit mind wishes to ignore the fact of the matter, but just because you ignorantly assign a different meaning to single market - doesn't make your recollection any less of a falsehood.

Re: $1T is leaving Britain because of Brexit

#228

Post by JAlexoid » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 10:30 PM UTC

repolfx wrote: post #200

matthewmacleod wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t share your view of this. First off, you can disregard any statements made by Leave campaigners during the referendum campaign. The same people who are now advocating a “cut all ties” approach were the ones who were saying things like “nobody is talking about leaving the single market”. Looking for ideological consistency is a dead end. Second, the UK and campaigners should have been well aware of what would b…

I agree that looking for ideological consistency is a dead end in any large group of people, including for those who campaigned to remain. Some supported the EU project for ideological reasons (it's an ideological, utopian project after all) and others had purely pragmatic concerns. Some who argued for one side have switched to the other in the years since. Third, you are deliberately misrepresenting the nature and s…

Of course you're downvoted. Arrogant ignorance is just asking for a downvote.

Citing foreign ministers of member states just proves how ignorant you are on EU itself.

Again - single market isn't just trade. Read what four freedoms are, aka single market. The options for UK are clear: - if you want to leave customs union, you leave barrier free trading - if you want to restrict labour movement, you leave freedom of goods, services and capital movement

UK's real options, with Brexiteers in mind, is CETA++...

The position of UK and leavers was that of a deranged husband in divorce - demanding sex, without so much as an inkling of fidelity.

Re: $1T is leaving Britain because of Brexit

#229

Post by JAlexoid » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 10:34 PM UTC

lazyjones wrote: post #54

lhopki01 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway is a member of the single market via the EEA and Switzerland essentially is because of it's bilateral treaties. The UK is proposing to leave the single market (in the best case)

> The UK is proposing to leave the single market (in the best case) No, May wants to stay in the single market, the EU is refusing that option. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/single-market... This stubbornness on behalf of the EU will damage both sides economically and thus be corrected at some point when the current EU administration is replaced by a more reasonable one.

"The European Single Market, Internal Market or Common Market is a single market which seeks to guarantee the free movement of goods, capital, services, and labour – the "four freedoms" – within the European Union (EU)."

That labour thing is unrestricted migration. I'm 100% sure that migration is the red line.

So... Yeah! May is proposing to leave EU Single Market.

Re: $1T is leaving Britain because of Brexit

#230

Post by JAlexoid » Mon, Jan 07, 2019, 10:42 PM UTC

lazyjones wrote: post #218

Xylakant wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Name one important issue where the EU has reached a satisfactory agreement and results. The ability to travel, reside, work anywhere I desire in the EU as a right that I can rely on instead of having to ask for permission. The fact that I could marry another EU citizen from another country without having to ask for permission. That we have no extra paperwork related to that, even with a child. I still remember pass…

> The ability to travel, reside, work anywhere I desire in the EU as a right that I can rely on instead of having to ask for permission This was a founding principle of the EU and has been weakened recently as I'm sure you know. Also, in most countries you have to register and are only allowed to stay 6 months without work. Marrying people from other countries in Europe is not a problem and not an achievement of the…

Registration is a matter of declaring that you're there. You have to register, only if you're getting employed or applying for benefits... I can rent an apartment in Warsaw, while officially working in Berlin and never bother telling Polish government that I am a resident there. (FFS! I did that multiple times in various EU countries... Ireland, UK, Netherlands, Denmark, Italy...)

And guess what? Nothing will happen. At worst I'll show my tax statement from Germany and tax authorities will fuck off.

Now I moved to US.... Where I have to ask permission to fucking leave this shithole of a country.