Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism • Hacker News Board

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#221

Post by A1phab3t » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 7:00 PM UTC

logicchains wrote: post #119

logicchains wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I wonder what I should give my kids when they have fevers though You don't have to give them anything. Ibuprofen doesn't make the underlying infection causing the fever go away any quicker, it just alleviates the symptoms. It's a trade off between reducing short-term suffering and risking long-term defects. Personally my parents never gave me painkillers for fever and I'm grateful for it: fever pain is just a tempor…

Replying to my own comment as it's too late to edit, I was basing my assumptions on studies showing fever reducing drugs have no positive effect on mortality in adults, like described in https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/05/11/well... , but was unaware that children face separate risks from high fever that can make such drugs more vital. So my comment is bad advice.

I appreciate that you followed up.

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#222

Post by floatingatoll » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 7:06 PM UTC

drb91 wrote: post #71

michaco33 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like the industry responding with "we cant really know guys, right?" I'm throwing away my Advil right now. Screw that.

OTOH acetaminophen is known to be toxic; is there an alternative here for non narcotic inflammation, fever, and pain relief that is shown NOT to have tradeoffs for use?

Ice. (As in, frozen water.)

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#223

Post by zenexer » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 7:08 PM UTC

gameswithgo wrote: post #168

jey wrote: post #2

"Ibuprofen and hypogonadism — bench to bedside to misinterpreted hype?" at https://www.nature.com/articles/nrurol.2018.26 : > A recent study suggests modulation of luteinizing hormone signalling within the hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal axis and downstream transcriptional effects caused by sustained ibuprofen use. However, this study cannot be used to draw any clinical conclusions regarding effects of ibuprofen on ma…

>However, this study cannot be used to draw any clinical conclusions regarding effects of ibuprofen on male androgenic or reproductive health why not?

Their argument is that we have yet to determine the real-world consequences for the correlation observed in the experiment.

In other words: yes, ibuprofen seems to affect something, but we don’t really know whether that effect is significant enough to warrant avoidance of ibuprofen. It might have no observable impact.

(Not saying I agree—this is just their argument.)

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#224

Post by floatingatoll » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 7:09 PM UTC

azhenley wrote: post #4

This is terrifying. I used to take a lot of ibuprofen for frequent headaches (much better now). Military doctors were overzealous with the 800mg prescriptions (double the OTC dose). I suppose I should just use naproxen or acetaminophen? Ibuprofen always seemed the most effective to me.

Do you have bloodwork showing reduced testosterone levels? If not, get that first - your situation sounds complicated enough without removing a solution that may not be causing you any measurable harm.

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#225

Post by zenexer » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 7:13 PM UTC

sodosopa wrote: post #160

azhenley wrote: post #4

This is terrifying. I used to take a lot of ibuprofen for frequent headaches (much better now). Military doctors were overzealous with the 800mg prescriptions (double the OTC dose). I suppose I should just use naproxen or acetaminophen? Ibuprofen always seemed the most effective to me.

acetaminophen damages the liver and kidneys at an alarming rate. It should have been skipped prior to today.

Only if taken in excessive doses. It’s fairly harmless if taken as instructed.

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#226

Post by DanBC » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 7:21 PM UTC

cyphar wrote: post #181

naasking wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> OTOH acetaminophen is known to be toxic This is news to me. What exactly does "toxic" mean? Do you have a citation I can read? Acetaminophen is not for inflammation anyway.

Paracetamol (or acetaminophen) can cause liver failure if you take too high a dose[1] (this is one of the reasons you are told not to drink alcohol when taking paracetamol -- if your liver is struggling to process alcohol you're more susceptible to liver failure). In fact, paracetamol poisoning is the primary cause of death in overdoses (in the US, UK, Australia and New Zealand)[2]. And in 2006, [3] found it was the…

> In fact, paracetamol poisoning is the primary cause of death in overdoses (in the US, UK, Australia and New Zealand)[2].

No, it isn't, and for the people who die from paracetamol it's an intentional overdose, it's very rarely an accidental overdose.

In the US about 500 people die each year from acetaminophen overdose per year, compared to over 70,000 from opioids.

Your link number 3 is talking about compounds containing paracetamol. For example, this includes coproxamol. Anyone overdosing on coproxamol was dying from the opioid (dextropropoxyphene), not from the paracetamol.

In the UK we have the ONS deaths related to drugs poisoning. Figure six shows deaths compared by drug type, and paracetamol clear isn't the highest: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsde...

We also have the NCISH data. Item 120 here: https://documents.manchester.ac.uk/display.aspx?DocID=38469

3095 deaths by self-poisoning.

    Substance                    Number   
  Opiates/opioids                 947    33%
  - opiates only                  746    26%
  - paracetamol/opiate compound   201     7%
  Non-opiate analgesics           205     7%
  Antipsychotics                  302    11%
  Antidepressants                 587    21%
  - tricyclics                    271     9%
  - SSRI/SNRIs                    260     9%
  - other antidepressants          56     2%

Paracetamol is dangerous in overdose, but that says nothing about its safety in normal usage.

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#227

Post by cyphar » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 7:27 PM UTC

abathur wrote: post #205

cyphar wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paracetamol (or acetaminophen) can cause liver failure if you take too high a dose[1] (this is one of the reasons you are told not to drink alcohol when taking paracetamol -- if your liver is struggling to process alcohol you're more susceptible to liver failure). In fact, paracetamol poisoning is the primary cause of death in overdoses (in the US, UK, Australia and New Zealand)[2]. And in 2006, [3] found it was the…

I can't cite a source, but I recall being told when I was prescribed a few days of vicodin+acetaminophen after an appendectomy that acetaminophen is (often? sometimes? always?) combined with some potentially-addictive painkillers to limit the extent to which they can be abused without the user needing treatment for liver issues. This doesn't really undercut anything you say, but if I was given accurate information I…

This was mentioned in the Wikipedia article about paracetamol poisoning (though the reason paracetamol is added to opiod painkillers is because apparently the combination works better than either drug separately).

But the original point was about whether paracetamol is toxic, not how often people overdose on Panadol (though that does happen in suicides). And the answer is "yes, but not in the dosages you'd normally see".

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#228

Post by cyphar » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 7:30 PM UTC

naasking wrote: post #203

cyphar wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paracetamol (or acetaminophen) can cause liver failure if you take too high a dose[1] (this is one of the reasons you are told not to drink alcohol when taking paracetamol -- if your liver is struggling to process alcohol you're more susceptible to liver failure). In fact, paracetamol poisoning is the primary cause of death in overdoses (in the US, UK, Australia and New Zealand)[2]. And in 2006, [3] found it was the…

> Paracetamol (or acetaminophen) can cause liver failure if you take too high a dose Sure, and drinking too much water causes hypernutremia that can also kill you. Toxicity is always dose dependent, so the initial unqualified claim seemed to imply toxicity at normal dosages.

Botulinum toxin (botox) doesn't kill most people in the standard dosage, but it is obviously toxic (it's in the name).

Paracetamol poisoning is fairly common, hypernutremia isn't. Don't get me wrong, I disagree with the original statement that paracetamol is toxic (with the implication that this is a reason not to use it in normal dosages). But it's definitely not harmless.

Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#229

Post by dang » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 7:36 PM UTC

acct1771 wrote: post #87

complector wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

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Re: Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology to produce compensated hypogonadism

#230

Post by donjoe » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 7:38 PM UTC

philliphaydon wrote: post #220

donjoe wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just as a side hint: did you ever get your vitamin levels checked? I had migraines with aura a couple of times a week until I got a full vitamine check up on B vitamines and Q10. I had a huge lack of B12 plus Q10. I managed to compensate with supplements (the expensive ones from the pharmacy) and didn't have migraine now in 3 months. Might be worth looking into :)

I haven't. I have a stack of multi vitamins & B12 here so I'll take them and see how I go. Thanks for the info.

Better check with the doc first. Otherwise you'll produce expensive piss with no effect. All vitamins I bought outside the pharmacy didn't work for me so better try to go with the 'real' but more expensive stuff prescribed by a doc.

Edit: I got Sanomit q10 and Ankermann B12 (1000ug).