China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced • Hacker News Board

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#221

Post by gumby » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 6:03 PM UTC

bitexploder wrote: post #46

will_brown wrote: post #33

Well here in the US we have an actual credit system in place. And since basic necessities are often dependent on credit rating (employment; housing purchaes ; rentals; vehicle financing/lease) it’s pretty dystopian. Not to mention for nearly 20 years now we have had secret no fly lists (no due process to get on or off) and even secret kill lists (no due process), I think it’s just another way to skin the cat, and may…

I don’t think there is much equivalency here. The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit. Anyone, even someone with little money can have good credit. Even if you have medical debt you can maintain your credit rating. People may not know how to do it, but it isn’t too hard. The privacy aspects of it suck, but it just isn’t that dystopian and it’s usage is relatively narrow in society.…

> Secret no fly lists: impact a very small slice of the population. ... Secret kill lists are for terrorists

How can you know if they are secret? And it’s pretty cavalier to say “impact a small slice” — it’s a bit deal if you’re part of that small slice, fair or not.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#222

Post by oh_sigh » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 6:04 PM UTC

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #101

bitexploder wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think there is much equivalency here. The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit. Anyone, even someone with little money can have good credit. Even if you have medical debt you can maintain your credit rating. People may not know how to do it, but it isn’t too hard. The privacy aspects of it suck, but it just isn’t that dystopian and it’s usage is relatively narrow in society.…

> The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit. If you’re rich.

It's easy to have bad credit while being rich, and good credit while being poor. The question is how much reasonable debt do you take on and service according to the contract? And that has nothing to do with how rich or poor you are.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#223

Post by dwild » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 6:05 PM UTC

will_brown wrote: post #33

Well here in the US we have an actual credit system in place. And since basic necessities are often dependent on credit rating (employment; housing purchaes ; rentals; vehicle financing/lease) it’s pretty dystopian. Not to mention for nearly 20 years now we have had secret no fly lists (no due process to get on or off) and even secret kill lists (no due process), I think it’s just another way to skin the cat, and may…

The credit system is there to show you can pay your debt. That's important to show that you can pay back a debt, or else why would anyone would let you have debt to them.

You don't need social credit system to prove that you can take a plane. We all can takes a plane, there's no special social skills to takes a plane. This is literally punitive.

Inherently Life already have some kind of social credit system that act like our credit system. That's called reputation, or having contacts, or in slang, street's cred. I can't make a call right now to many celebrities, yet someone with enough reputation, wouldn't have trouble getting in contact with some. In a more realistic context, someone that want to become lawyer NEEDS contacts to make it, that's just the way it is, theses contacts are way, like in our credit system, to prove that you know what you are doing and can do more.

Works does the same with experience.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#224

Post by johnchristopher » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 6:15 PM UTC

Just_Smith wrote: post #111

johnchristopher wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That black mirror system is p2p when China's system is centralized. I believe the black mirror system is worse.

Just curious - why do you think a centralized system would be superior to a decentralized system? That would allow the norm to be dictated by the central authority, and not through public consensus.

Sorry, there is a misunderstanding. It's the other way around. I believe the black mirror system is more efficient to establish social control and is more perverse because everyone is policing it, watching you and reporting you. It's the real nature of big brother (what I remember from the book): everyone is big brother in the end and there's no escape.

Our life would be worse in a black mirror system than in a Chinese system.

Both systems are fucked up though.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#225

Post by methodover » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 6:26 PM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #98

706f6f70 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because not all societies enshrine individual freedom as their primary value. China has historically valued orderliness, collective well-being, and personal sacrifice. This sucks from a Western perspective, but it also means that a great many of the problems the West faces will never manifest in China. There are very few absolute wrongs in the world and it's not clear that this would be one of them.

> orderliness, collective well-being, and personal sacrifice I don't know, most Chinese people I've met are at least as selfish as the average Westerner, often more (and let's not even begin about the stereotypical "I don't care about anything" 60 year old Chinese tourist). I'm no expert, but while surely many Chinese rulers have emphasized these values, I'm not convinced that the population ever cared much about the…

> China has historically valued orderliness, collective well-being, and personal sacrifice. This sucks from a Western perspective, but it also means that a great many of the problems the West faces will never manifest in China.

Like what?

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#226

Post by seanmcdirmid » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 6:30 PM UTC

will_brown wrote: post #220

rubyfan wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lease agreements typically entitle one to a property for a fixed period for financially agreed terms. It’s incredibly hard to evict a bad tenant. One’s past payment performance is a huge predictor for the future. An understanding of ones debt to income ratio is also useful in predicting their future ability to hold up their end of the lease. It’s actually a completely reasonable use of credit report.

>One’s past payment performance is a huge predictor for the future. And I’m sure China could easily argue prior social behavior is a huge predictor of future social behavior. But the real problem in the US is you have an entire class of people who have no credit history (the poor), not bad credit history, but no credit history. You aren’t wrong if I’m lending money I’d want to know debt to income ratio, but why does…

Actually in China you don’t need a credit check to get an apartment, you only need to pay 3 or 6 months in advance instead (I nean, you pay in 3-6 month chunks).

Likewise, there was no credit extended for things like power, you were expected to pre-charge your power instead.

Being a good and obedient communist isn’t a very good predictor of anything but itself.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#227

Post by Just_Smith » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 6:30 PM UTC

will_brown wrote: post #220

rubyfan wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lease agreements typically entitle one to a property for a fixed period for financially agreed terms. It’s incredibly hard to evict a bad tenant. One’s past payment performance is a huge predictor for the future. An understanding of ones debt to income ratio is also useful in predicting their future ability to hold up their end of the lease. It’s actually a completely reasonable use of credit report.

>One’s past payment performance is a huge predictor for the future. And I’m sure China could easily argue prior social behavior is a huge predictor of future social behavior. But the real problem in the US is you have an entire class of people who have no credit history (the poor), not bad credit history, but no credit history. You aren’t wrong if I’m lending money I’d want to know debt to income ratio, but why does…

To elaborate on your point a little further, because I think a lot of people truly don't understand this: having no credit is worse than having bad credit, so the argument that being conservative with your finances is all you need is blatantly wrong and tone-deaf. My first apartment cost me $500/mo. The deposit to turn on power was $100, $300, and $500 for good, bad, and no credit respectively. I had no credit, because I didn't think I was making enough money to take on a credit card payment. Thus, I ended up paying more than $1500 to move into a $500/mo apartment.

I made the fiscally responsible choice to not take on debt I could not afford, but I was punished more than if I had indebted myself. I got a credit card shortly after, and naturally spent years trying to keep up with the payments that I couldn't afford at the time. Anyone that cannot see the clear trap being laid here is doing so willfully.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#228

Post by johnchristopher » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 6:49 PM UTC

PMan74 wrote: post #45

johnchristopher wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That black mirror system is p2p when China's system is centralized. I believe the black mirror system is worse.

The Black Mirror system reminded me more of Uber: drivers doing the utmost to ingratiate themselves to passengers for fear of losing their livelihood through a few bad scores.

I wonder how things would go if the score was private.

Also, what would be the consequences of knowing who upvoted you or downvoted you ? Now that I think about it, neither imgur or hn let you see that. Should we be entitled to that kind of data ?

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#229

Post by ryanwaggoner » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 7:01 PM UTC

will_brown wrote: post #33

Well here in the US we have an actual credit system in place. And since basic necessities are often dependent on credit rating (employment; housing purchaes ; rentals; vehicle financing/lease) it’s pretty dystopian. Not to mention for nearly 20 years now we have had secret no fly lists (no due process to get on or off) and even secret kill lists (no due process), I think it’s just another way to skin the cat, and may…

People with bad credit can still get jobs and rent apartments. I rent to tenants with bad credit all the time. It’s just one factor. And I’m guessing that people who are otherwise qualified getting turned down for employment due to bad or no credit is a very rare thing.

Regardless, there’s a world of difference in me considering a rental application with bad credit and the government forbidding me to rent to someone, not because of their prior ability to handle credit responsibly, but because they didn’t follow the political wishes of the government in power. I seriously can’t understand how anyone can compare them with a straight face.

The credit system (and a lot of other things) in the US is a mess, I agree. Howecer, this rampant whataboutism that’s reflexively thrown out when discussing truly horrific human rights abuses against millions or even hundreds of millions is intellectually bankrupt. It makes me worry that too many of us no longer value our freedoms enough to protect them like we should.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#230

Post by ryanwaggoner » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 7:02 PM UTC

will_brown wrote: post #160

lifeformed wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't believe people keep equating these two systems. While there are similarities, one is a financial rating and the other is a social rating. The credit system has a lot of issues but it just does what it says on the tin, measuring the same credit card metrics, and had been around for a while without much change. The social rating system seeps into every aspect of a person's life and had no limits for expansion.…

>I can't believe people keep equating these two systems. You want to work here? We are going to have to check your credit! Which system is it? You’re born poor and apply for your first job, a nice government job with nice government benefits, but can’t get it because you don’t have any credit established. Hell youre poor, forget credit you can’t even open a bank account, go apply for a minimum wage job, then head to…

Give me a break. You don’t need good credit for the vast majority of jobs.