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Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

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Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#221

Post by Impossible »

jpfed wrote: post #76
potta_coffee wrote: post #3

The closest thing I've found to this is Pico-8: not a computer, a piece of software, but it's very cool. It has a simple text editor for writing Lua code, a simple sprite editor, and a simple sound editor, all for creating games. It's a nice little sandbox for playing with code and creating things. https://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php

Pico-8 was my son's very first introduction to programming. He does much more with the integrated sprite editor and sfx/music editors than he does with actual coding. I would like to get him interested in TIC-80 as a replacement. Key weaknesses of Pico-8 for kids learning to program: 1. The editor runs at the same resolution that the games do. Maybe this is because they didn't want to make their VM flexible enough to…

All of these are explicit design choices, for example a fixed palette is important to give games a "Pico-8" look and also reduce decisions regarding color choice. I suggest you watch Joseph White's practice talk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87jfTIWosBw) if you're curious about design decisions that guided Pico-8.

Multiple resolutions would absolutely break the "Fantasy console" feel of Pico-8, even though I understand why programmers universally hate that. To be fair a lot of people do code editing outside of the Pico-8 editor.

#4 is an interesting point. The trick here is that different parents have different ideas of what is and isn't appropriate, and of course different kids will have different responses. It seems like the answer is to maybe have a version of Pico-8 that removes splore and expands the demo carts with some universally safe, popular titles.

TIC-80 is cool btw and might be a better learning environment for kids. I don't like it (or any of the other fantasy console\pico-8 clones) quite as much as Pico-8 because they remove constraints, making them feel more like generic game editors and less like imaginary retro computers.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#222

Post by thaumasiotes »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #210
thaumasiotes wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something seems off about learning general-purpose programming on a single-purpose device. How would you run your programs?

Pretty clearly it has to have a way to run the programs you enter as you're learning to program. Otherwise it's a lousy device at teaching programming. Or have I missed your point?

Yes, learning programming because that's what you do on the learning-programming-machine is a great way to convince people that learning programming is a waste of time.

You learn programming so you can do the things you want to do. Handicapping the device handicaps the whole project.

On the other hand, if your machine is able to run the programs you write, then it isn't a single-purpose device.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#223

Post by andrewstuart »

bdamm wrote: post #131
astrodust wrote: post #124

In the old days you saved up an extraordinary amount of money, bought a Commodore 64, plugged it in, and then had absolutely no idea what to do unless you had books. So you went and got books or magazines, some maybe from the library, some from bookstores, and many of them might be for systems other than the C64. It wasn't uncommon for a magazine to have to cater to a dozen slightly different versions of BASIC: Apple…

That's silly. Javascript requires all kinds of knowledge to get started; what does this code mean, how do you hook it into a page, what is DOM, etc. That's a lot to ask of a 10-yr old. Meanwhile, any 10-yr old can understand this code: 10 PRINT "Hey there Joe" 20 GOTO 10 Boom. Functional program. Instant gratification. That will be the last program this person ever writes that provides such instant reward, but neverm…

This is a key point.

The cognitive distance between power on and "10 print" is nothing.

The cognitive distance between all modern ways to teach programming is vast.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#225

Post by JacobJans »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #222
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty clearly it has to have a way to run the programs you enter as you're learning to program. Otherwise it's a lousy device at teaching programming. Or have I missed your point?

Yes, learning programming because that's what you do on the learning-programming-machine is a great way to convince people that learning programming is a waste of time. You learn programming so you can do the things you want to do. Handicapping the device handicaps the whole project. On the other hand, if your machine is able to run the programs you write, then it isn't a single-purpose device.

I think you're confusing purpose with functionality; they're not the same thing. Designing with a single purpose in mind determines the needed functionality; it does not limit it. Instead, the purpose supports the design decisions in relation to functionality.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#226

Post by jaysonelliot »

Personally, I'd just get them an Apple II.

They're still plentiful and cheap to find on eBay, and it's exactly what you're looking for.

There are modern hardware upgrades you can find to use CF or SD cards in place of floppies, so old media won't be an issue, as well as modern ways to connect to an LCD screen, and even Ethernet cards if you want to go online.

And of course, the Apple II is supremely open and hackable, perfect for kids who want to have access to the entire computer.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#227

Post by itomato »

teddyh wrote: post #171
itomato wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are all more justified than the person who claims Swift playground on an iPad is the pinnacle of CS for Primary School.

I understand, in a sense, what you mean (since I am of an earlier generation than the one which learned programming on that particular platform), but why should that necessarily be true? Hasn’t it always been the case that the current generation skips learning about useless lower layers used by older generations? How could it be that the layers you grew up are the special ones which are still useful, when all the lay…

Despite being an open language, Swift (and Playgrounds) is an effort to usher children into the Apple tent.

BASIC (essentially any 3GL) never wore such a veil. To suggest discrete logic and IC-level assembly compares to issuing commands via the LEGO Mindstorms protocol perfectly illustrates the chasm between learning and understanding.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#228

Post by tlrobinson »

potta_coffee wrote: post #3

The closest thing I've found to this is Pico-8: not a computer, a piece of software, but it's very cool. It has a simple text editor for writing Lua code, a simple sprite editor, and a simple sound editor, all for creating games. It's a nice little sandbox for playing with code and creating things. https://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php

Next Thing used to sell a "PICO-8 Console Kit" using their "Chip" single-board computer: http://blog.nextthing.co/pico-8-now-free-for-all-c-h-i-p-s/

Sadly they went out of business.

It would be easy to build something similar with a Raspberry Pi though.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#229

Post by sea-shore »

I missed the c64 etc. but.. Any smartphone or laptop can do this and more, even within a browser. What might be the real question is what do we need to limit for new users to reach that state of boredom needed to explore and create, instead of getting stuck in The feed.

Perhaps disable the network or pointing device?

(Dedicated hardware per task, even for myself, is slowly winning me over)

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#230

Post by excalibur »

JacobJans wrote: post #178

This post reminds me of a running line of thought that's been going on in my head for quite some time: "Single Purpose Devices." The main disadvantage of most computing devices is that they offer too many options; making them mentally unwieldy. A "single purpose device" is created to support just one purpose. The Kindle is perhaps the most famous example; it practically created an industry. Sure, it can do more than…

Dumb phone -> Talk and text, no camera, no browser, cheap and readily available. Please?
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