Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#221

Post by pbhjpbhj » Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 9:30 AM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #180

Darmani wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Duolingo has a policy of only recruiting from schools that have an above-average percent of women in their CS program. How do you feel about that?

> Duolingo has a policy of only recruiting from schools that have an above-average percent of women in their CS program. Thats a misleading statement. IMO, The main reason why they did that is because Carnegie Mellon University has more woman than men in its incoming CS classes, and Duolingo wanted an excuse to exclusively recruit from CMU (Which one of the founders teach at, and is strongly associated with).

Why do they need an excuse, is that not allowed in USA?

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#222

Post by pbhjpbhj » Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 9:34 AM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #130

mantas wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should we make sure every company that sends recruiters to Barnard's career fair also send recruiters to men-only college career fair?

That's a pointless, loaded question. HR and legal depts that don't want their company to be sued for violating Title VII will make sure that they aren't recruiting only from Barnard, unless they're some bona fide exception (e.g. hiring models for women's clothing). This idea that they need to recruit from men's only career fairs is your own.

Doesn't your argument about company's not wanting to be sued work exactly the same for those advertising online?

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#223

Post by gfiorav » Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 9:34 AM UTC

What if you want to make two separate ad campaigns? One targeted to men and one to women. This has yielded the best results in a previous company. We hired x5 the women (tech industry) just because we changed the wording a bit.

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#224

Post by belorn » Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 9:35 AM UTC

mreome wrote: post #69

pteredactyl wrote: post #30

I don't understand the problem. The flipside would be they're letting Job Advertisers only target women. I wonder what those numbers look like: What percentage of job advertisers only target women? If I'm spending ad dollars, why would I not choose the most effective form of advertising for me? That's not to say they're not hiring women. In which case it'd be more dubious. Last week in the Bay Area I heard a TSA radi…

The issue is that under the law, you as an employer are not allowed to make a hiring related choice that in any way discriminates against a protected class (with some exceptions discussed on other comments). You might expect to only get applications from men, but legally you can not target men specifically. The inclusion of 'women and people of color strongly encouraged to apply' is actually walking a fine legal line…

I wonder how fine that legal line is when an outreach program is using Facebook advertisement. How common is that they tick that gender box rather than adding some line of "women and people of color strongly encouraged to apply".

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#225

Post by dao- » Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 9:42 AM UTC

mdasen wrote: post #203

patmcc wrote: post #7

I'm a bit mixed about this; it is clearly discriminatory to publish a job ad that says "women need not apply", but it doesn't feel inherently discriminatory to advertise a job in, say, "Men's Health" but not "Cosmopolitan" magazine. Or to advertise on a particular television channel or program (whose viewers may not match the population at large). That's just how advertising works. Is that crazy? Would this be differ…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disparate_impact One thing you might be interested in reading about is Disparate Impact. Discrimination cases can be proven by showing that a practice has a disproportionately adverse impact on members of a protected class, even in the absence of intentional discrimination. The Supreme Court noted in Griggs v. Duke Power Co that the Civil Rights Act bans "not only overt discrimination bu…

> However, I can't get Facebook ads targeted to a different gender.

Actually you can by lying to Facebook. I have been doing this for a long time and the bullshit ads I get are kind of amusing.

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#226

Post by pbhjpbhj » Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 9:47 AM UTC

dogma1138 wrote: post #164

patmcc wrote: post #7

I'm a bit mixed about this; it is clearly discriminatory to publish a job ad that says "women need not apply", but it doesn't feel inherently discriminatory to advertise a job in, say, "Men's Health" but not "Cosmopolitan" magazine. Or to advertise on a particular television channel or program (whose viewers may not match the population at large). That's just how advertising works. Is that crazy? Would this be differ…

I don’t know about the US but there are rules in regards to job postings in the UK and likely the EU at large that would make that a violation of anti-discrimination laws.

I'm pretty sure I've seen adverts asking for women (but not the contrary); can you cite the legislation (at UK level is fine).

rant incoming:

Indeed in my small niche the almost exclusively female company owners, who always address group messages to "ladies", when enquiring about taking on employees always say "I'm thinking of taking on a girl, where should I advertise" or similar. Weekend help is "a Saturday girl".

Ageism and sexism, completely unchallenged by all the feminists who are supposedly keen to see equality.

Anyway .. carry on.

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#227

Post by craig_peacock » Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 9:47 AM UTC

I bet no one would blink an eye if Facebook allowed targeting jobs to only women. People really need to get over themselves, men and women inherently have different strengths, and so there are just some things that only men should do.

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#228

Post by pbhjpbhj » Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 9:49 AM UTC

drewmol wrote: post #215

meowface wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In classic rubber duck-debugging style, I ended up realizing that as soon as I pressed submit. In that case I suppose it's not very ethically questionable for things that are very clearly 100% (within a minuscule margin of error) men's only (prostate health, etc.) or women's only (sanitary pads). I guess the real quandary is for stuff that's male-dominated like hard, dangerous physical labor (coal mining etc.), but n…

If it's sexist(Wikipedia definition, yeah... I looked it up) then it's unethical, and if it's unethical I'd assume that's because of the sexism. Is it unethical and sexist? If it is, being overtly sexist/racist/classist and supporting it with data seems worse to me that just the former. Even it it is, it should surely not be outlawed.

Sexism isn't automatically unethical. There's also more than one ethical framework.

For example, buying different scented shower gel based on the sex of the recipient.

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#229

Post by pbhjpbhj » Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 9:56 AM UTC

Endy wrote: post #185

Double_a_92 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if they would advertise in a tech journal? Most readers are still probably male... But the journal is related to the job. Would that be discriminatory?

No, because the point is that "most readers" are male. The advertisement should be unisex. If a woman picks up that journal - whether just looking for want ads or because they are legitimately interested in the topic - they should be considered with complete equity to any male candidate. The point isn't where you advertise, it's if you target. You can target by geography. You can target by education. You can't target…

You say equity, what innate advantage are you suggesting compensating for? Who needs extra help in this situation?

Re: Facebook Is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men

#230

Post by pbhjpbhj » Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 10:02 AM UTC

pteredactyl wrote: post #55

ALittleLight wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting to think about. If I'm looking for someone to ride on a garbage truck, there's probably a 95% chance the future employee will be male, but acting on this expectation, by advertising to men instead of women - getting more employees per dollar spent, is sexist. Likewise, if I needed to hire an au pair I'd have to advertise to men and women equally?

I don't think it's sexist to target men for a job posting. You know the job, you know what it entails and you know what works behaviorally and physically. There are differences between genders. That's okay. I do think it's sexist to not hire a qualified women for the job because she's a women ( esp. in the garbage collector scenario). Like you hate women or something and you don't hire them ( funny story I heard a wo…

"There are differences between genders."

For sure. But you're not hiring a sex, you're hiring a person and individuals can match requirements for almost all types of position regardless of sex.