Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers • Hacker News Board

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#221

Post by Domenic_S » Sun, Jun 10, 2018, 9:43 PM UTC

RaceWon wrote: post #216

mcguire wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://support.volvocars.com/hk/cars/Pages/owners-manual.as... "WARNING "When the adaptive cruise control is following another vehicle at speeds in excess ofca 30 km/h (20 mph) and the target is changed from a moving vehicle to a stationary vehicle, the adaptive cruise control will ignore the stationary vehicle and instead select the stored speed. "The driver must then intervene him/herself and brake."

As an open wheel formula car racer, I have to say that my best guess is most people who would purchase a "self-driving" car do not like to drive (if I could disable the anti-lock on my cars I would, and I ALWAYS drive with the skid control turned off. Although I have track tested some of the VW models circa 2010 on short autocross tracks with the stability program on and did not find it a hindrance to driving the car…

Liking something doesn’t mean you have to partake 100% every time the opportunity arises. I like chocolate cake but I don’t order it every time I sit down to eat. What’s more, a lot of us are very skilled at things we don’t particularly like.

Ultimately what you’re keying into is skill and interest - most people aren’t very skilled at driving and they don’t really care to be.

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#222

Post by lancewiggs » Sun, Jun 10, 2018, 10:03 PM UTC

makewavesnotwar wrote: post #213

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bikes/e-bikes work great for any type of commute... Only when they aren't. Winter means snow, ice, and below zero temperatures and my hands simply can't handle the extra cold from the wind. I'm not handicapped and do walk during the winter, but tend to take the bus on the very rainy and very cold days despite dressing for the weather. let alone the fact that I'm no where near skilled enough with a bicycle to feel saf…

So first off, I love buses as a means of transportation and in any situation where biking would be unsafe, I would err on the side of caution and use a bus like you suggest so you know, no judgement here, I think that's cool. And yeah, not having bike paths makes it a whole different story. Drivers can be very irresponsible regarding the safety of cyclists (especially during inclement weather). I would personally be…

This is pretty extreme. For my ebiking to work during summer and winter I wear pretty much the same as whatever the pedestrians are wearing. The only extra thing I take is a pair of light waterproof pants, to supplement my jacket in case it really pours.

I'm a big fan of the added basket on the back of the bike - so there is no need to put anything on my back.

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#223

Post by joe_the_user » Sun, Jun 10, 2018, 10:30 PM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #177

ScottBurson wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the meaning in this context is just a model saying what objects are nearby, where they are, how large they are, and what their velocity vectors are, and maybe guesses as to what kind of object (car, truck, pedestrian, lamppost, etc.) they are.

Mnyeah, I see what you mean, but I wouldn't call that a world model. Nouveau AI is great for classification, so it can certainly recognise what the individual objects around it are. However, a "world model" should include the relations between identified objects, in some representation that can then be used for inference. For example, a classifier can label an object in the path of a vehicle as, e.g. "tree", but a wo…

I don't think your original comment was at all problematic.

There's a naturally impulse for a human being to look at a problem and say "of course you need a world for this and it will have X, Y and Z data and it will be give you all you need." That is until they figure out how it is to keeping X, Y and Z updated is.

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#224

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jun 10, 2018, 11:30 PM UTC

Domenic_S wrote: post #221

RaceWon wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an open wheel formula car racer, I have to say that my best guess is most people who would purchase a "self-driving" car do not like to drive (if I could disable the anti-lock on my cars I would, and I ALWAYS drive with the skid control turned off. Although I have track tested some of the VW models circa 2010 on short autocross tracks with the stability program on and did not find it a hindrance to driving the car…

Liking something doesn’t mean you have to partake 100% every time the opportunity arises. I like chocolate cake but I don’t order it every time I sit down to eat. What’s more, a lot of us are very skilled at things we don’t particularly like. Ultimately what you’re keying into is skill and interest - most people aren’t very skilled at driving and they don’t really care to be.

[deleted]

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#225

Post by stephengillie » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 12:59 AM UTC

jstarfish wrote: post #207

stephengillie wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Still, you would think that there would be some threshold where the car decides, "Hey, this stationary obstacle is right in front of me . I should slow down" From the article: > When a car is moving at low speeds, slamming on the brakes isn't a big risk. A car traveling at 20mph can afford to wait until an object is quite close before slamming on the brakes, making unnecessary stops unlikely. Short stopping distanc…

So...dont brake suddenly. Decelerate, buy some time to collect and analyze more data and if the end result still appears to be a collision, then brake hard. If a human driver started hallucinating behind the wheel, we would expect them to do the same, not maintain speed (or accelerate!) through the supposed object in their path. This tech was supposed to be safer and more convenient than human driving, not a simulati…

> So...dont brake suddenly. Decelerate, buy some time to collect and analyze more data and if the end result still appears to be a collision, then brake hard.

This requires the automated brake computers to be connected to the autonomous cruise computers. According to the article, in most cars, these computers are separate systems.

It's like if one person operated the brake pedal, another operated the gas, and a third steering the car. When one hallucinates, the others might not realize right away.

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#226

Post by astura » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 1:36 AM UTC

RaceWon wrote: post #216

mcguire wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://support.volvocars.com/hk/cars/Pages/owners-manual.as... "WARNING "When the adaptive cruise control is following another vehicle at speeds in excess ofca 30 km/h (20 mph) and the target is changed from a moving vehicle to a stationary vehicle, the adaptive cruise control will ignore the stationary vehicle and instead select the stored speed. "The driver must then intervene him/herself and brake."

As an open wheel formula car racer, I have to say that my best guess is most people who would purchase a "self-driving" car do not like to drive (if I could disable the anti-lock on my cars I would, and I ALWAYS drive with the skid control turned off. Although I have track tested some of the VW models circa 2010 on short autocross tracks with the stability program on and did not find it a hindrance to driving the car…

Um... Just because someone doesn't care to do something doesn't mean they are bad at it. In fact, it's been my experience that the people who enjoy driving the most are the most reckless ones.

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#227

Post by astura » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 2:00 AM UTC

Someone wrote: post #208

Retric wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't get me wrong they very well may be significantly less safe than an attentive human driver in good conditions on good roads. However, they are reasonably close and the average driver is not going to improve any time soon while self driving cars will. The trend of things machines can do better than people really only goes in one direction. Further people are vastly worse at driving than they think, over 1.25 mill…

”the average driver is not going to improve any time soon while self driving cars will.” I don’t see how that’s an argument in favor of letting today’s self driving cars loose on the road. We don’t let people without any driving experience drive cars either because, if we let them, they “will improve soon”. Or are you suggesting letting self-driving cars loose now is a necessary sacrifice we have to make to make prog…

>We don’t let people without any driving experience drive cars either because, if we let them, they “will improve soon”.

Yes we do, that's exactly what a learner's permit is for.

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#228

Post by astura » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 2:13 AM UTC

newnewpdro wrote: post #217

ghaff wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that someone is going to spend an hour studying a user manual when they pickup a rental car at the airport is just silly. I actually find it something of an issue with rental cars these days. Obviously the foot pedals, turn signals, etc. are well enough standardized that it takes very little to accustomize yourself with them. But environmental/entertainment controls? And then there's the fact that things lik…

I recently completed a safety-oriented traffic school course online and there was an entire section dedicated to renting and borrowing cars. It surprised me to see it covered, let alone how thorough their guidelines were. Some things I recall from their pre-flight checklist: - check general tire condition and pressures in a walk-around - locate the spare tire and jack - familiarize yourself with the location of pedal…

I think you locate them to make sure they exist.

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#229

Post by astura » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 2:29 AM UTC

MBCook wrote: post #205

hfdgiutdryg wrote: post #198

And it also creates a danger that the car behind won't stop in time, leading to a rear-end collision. Inattentive tailgaters shouldn't be accommodated. Sure, their problem becomes your problem when you brake hard, but I'd much rather be rear-ended (with head rests and the whole rear of the car as a crumple zone) than plow head on into a stationary object at high speed.

If the car in front of me doesn’t stop until it’s too late (or at all) it doesn’t matter how attentive I am, I probably can’t stop in time either. Most of the time I can’t see past the car in front of me. It’s too tall, no windows (commercial truck), etc. so the ONLY way I know I’m in danger is how they’re acting.

You're kidding, right? If you're unable to stop in time you are, by definition, tailgating.

You're supposed to keep a safe following distance where you avoid a collision if the vehicle in front of you stops suddenly.

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#230

Post by ScottBurson » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 4:05 AM UTC

joe_the_user wrote: post #106

ScottBurson wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the meaning in this context is just a model saying what objects are nearby, where they are, how large they are, and what their velocity vectors are, and maybe guesses as to what kind of object (car, truck, pedestrian, lamppost, etc.) they are.

The thing is that a bunch of data with something like objects and velocities isn't a world model. "How Large" a given thing is, is only one of a multitude of questions. I think we humans are so good at just passively keeping track of everything in our environment we forget how difficult it is "keep a world model" from what one sees.

> The thing is that a bunch of data with something like objects and velocities isn't a world model.

Sure it is. Whether it's an adequate model for some particular purpose is another question. But no model includes everything.

Objects and velocities would be a good start. I don't know enough about the present state of the technology to know whether we even have that. But from some of these accidents we're seeing, it seems like we don't.

I would agree that a better model would attempt to infer intentions: what is that driver/cyclist/pedestrian likely to do next, based on what they're doing now?