Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, report finds • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, report finds

#221

Post by randall » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 3:24 PM UTC

Clanan wrote: post #218

crdoconnor wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Instead of giving in to a gut reaction, you should read the paper. All research must get funding in one way or another. If you exclude research due to funding sources and potential conflicts of interest, you wouldn't be left with much. It makes sense to try and figure out what the funders would want the answer to be and see if the research matches that. If it does, shouldn't you be more skeptical? For example, if Ex…

Every patron of every piece of research is hoping to benefit from it. I certainly agree that a reader should consider the goals of the authors and backers, and I would hope the authors would make both clear. I just get piqued when intellectual laziness steps in and says "don't read this, it's funded by biased sponsors (i.e. humans)!"

I think this is a very salient point... it's essentially ad hominem and I'm tempted to fall into this fallacy. Thanks!

Re: Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, report finds

#222

Post by stochastic_monk » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 3:38 PM UTC

throwawayjava wrote: post #23

Y7ZCQtNo39 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but whoever is first to market on driverless (e.g., Tesla) has already said they will have a separate network for letting others use your Tesla to subsidize your ownership cost. Aka, your Tesla won't be a part of Uber's driverless fleet. So, at best, they become a 40-billion dollar driver/rider match-making algorithm and a pretty CRUD app. Unless Uber itself is working on autonomous driving technology. It's so…

> Unless Uber itself is working on autonomous driving technology https://www.uber.com/info/atg/

Uber's autonomous driving technology was at the core of the Waymo/Uber lawsuit/scandal. I'm a little surprised by how easily Google/Waymo gave up and accepted a settlement.

Re: Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, report finds

#223

Post by kawsper » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 3:41 PM UTC

astrodust wrote: post #2

Uber is losing billions and their drivers are making peanuts. That sounds sustainable.

Your comment made me remember that Richard Stallman calls Uber for Guber (Refering to Goober; another word for a peanut), because they pay peanuts to their drivers.

Re: Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, report finds

#224

Post by AnthonyMouse » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 3:52 PM UTC

elgenie wrote: post #189

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you exclude research due to funding sources and potential conflicts of interest, you wouldn't be left with much. If the majority of research is tainted by conflicts, that doesn't somehow make it any less tainted by conflicts. It's trivially easy to design a study to produce the results you want it to, just by selecting things like accounting methods at the outset. For example, one method of accounting is to allo…

You could also read the methodology in the study when it comes out, since describing that is required in science, as opposed to questioning hypothetical methodologies that could be used. From the brief version of the study ( http://ceepr.mit.edu/files/papers/2018-005-Brief.pdf ), it appears they're using per-mile costs and ascribing only the incremental costs on a per-mile basis. > Of the five sources of cost estimat…

You are correct that I used a hypothetical methodology.

That's because -- and this is the real problem -- finding the flaw in a specific methodology is a lot of work. It's often not just one thing that throws the numbers off by 200%, it's one thing that throws them off by 12%, then another by 7%, and twenty other little things that add and multiply up to an inaccurate overall conclusion. It can take multiple hours to figure out what actually happened and people don't have that kind of time, so the majority of people only have time to read the conclusion and who sponsored it.

In theory the solution to the problem of everyone having to personally evaluate every study is for a trustworthy reporter to do it for you, but that hasn't worked ever since reporters figured out that "Uber eats souls" gets more clicks than "wage study methodology miscalculates wages."

But if you want a real flaw in this study, how about this one -- most other jobs don't let you count transportation expenses against the hourly wage. Obviously an Uber driver's transportation expenses will be higher, but that doesn't mean you can discount them in the other cases when you count them in this case.

If someone has a 30 mile commute (because living closer to work is even more expensive) at $0.53/mile, that's 60 miles a day, so $31.80 in daily incremental expenses to take the job. 8 hours at federal minimum wage ($7.25/hr) is $58, so after transportation expenses their hourly wage is $3.28/hour. For someone with a 50 mile commute it's $0.63/hour. Suddenly Uber doesn't look so bad.

Re: Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, report finds

#225

Post by malandrew » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 3:57 PM UTC

elgenie wrote: post #189

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you exclude research due to funding sources and potential conflicts of interest, you wouldn't be left with much. If the majority of research is tainted by conflicts, that doesn't somehow make it any less tainted by conflicts. It's trivially easy to design a study to produce the results you want it to, just by selecting things like accounting methods at the outset. For example, one method of accounting is to allo…

You could also read the methodology in the study when it comes out, since describing that is required in science, as opposed to questioning hypothetical methodologies that could be used. From the brief version of the study ( http://ceepr.mit.edu/files/papers/2018-005-Brief.pdf ), it appears they're using per-mile costs and ascribing only the incremental costs on a per-mile basis. > Of the five sources of cost estimat…

> Of the five sources of cost estimated per mile (Insurance, Maintenance, Repairs, Fuel and Depreciation), approximately 40% of costs are attributable to Insurance, Maintenance and Repairs, 40% to fuel expenses, and 20% to depreciation.

Does their methodology ascribe only the incremental aspect of each of these costs?

If I own a car already for my own personal use. I'm going to deal with all of these costs. You're already going to have insurance, maintenance and repairs, they'll just be more frequent. Fuel expenses is the only input that can be accurately estimated and attributed to ridesharing work performed. Even this contains a huge variable. Did they account for drivers using hybrid vehicles, which more and more ridesharing drivers opt for because it's significantly more profitable? Is the median TNC driver using a more fuel efficient vehicle than the one they accounted for in their calculations?

The fact that the study doesn't have an entire section that I found entirely devoted to potential problems with their methodology that we are pointing out here is reason enough to discount it as tainted after also considering its funders.

Re: Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, report finds

#226

Post by aianus » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 3:58 PM UTC

nemo3141 wrote: post #215

aianus wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I drove for Uber part-time last year in Canada and made less than $3 an hour on paper at tax time. However, this is highly misleading simply because I was able to deduct fixed "business expenses" that I would have spent anyways to own a car. Insurance, parking, licensing, registration, and finance interest, were all things that I would have spent anyways in the exact same amounts even if I only drove the car for pers…

I am not sure about Canada but in US you are supposed to deduct expenses for Insurance, parking, licensing, registration as a percent of miles driven for business. So 20k miles driven total with 10k for Uber and 10k for personal means only half of your car expenses is deductible for Uber income.

Yes, it's the same here. Still, since Uber wasn't doubling my insurance (it actually didn't cost anything more), deducting half my insurance etc. for Uber is not really an accurate accounting of the expenses.

I bought the car because I like driving and I like having a car, and I would have bought it anyways.

Re: Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, report finds

#227

Post by malandrew » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 4:04 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #224

elgenie wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could also read the methodology in the study when it comes out, since describing that is required in science, as opposed to questioning hypothetical methodologies that could be used. From the brief version of the study ( http://ceepr.mit.edu/files/papers/2018-005-Brief.pdf ), it appears they're using per-mile costs and ascribing only the incremental costs on a per-mile basis. > Of the five sources of cost estimat…

You are correct that I used a hypothetical methodology. That's because -- and this is the real problem -- finding the flaw in a specific methodology is a lot of work. It's often not just one thing that throws the numbers off by 200%, it's one thing that throws them off by 12%, then another by 7%, and twenty other little things that add and multiply up to an inaccurate overall conclusion. It can take multiple hours to…

> most other jobs don't let you count transportation expenses against the hourly wage

Good job in pointing out this huge flaw in this study. Every minimum wage job I ever worked required me to have a vehicle to get to and from that job. That means that every minimum wage job out there where you need to pay for transportation to get to it is paying below minimum wage as the end the day. Those who live in cities have the benefit of public transportation but also have the time cost of being slower and reduces the number of waking hours they can earn money. What's the hours lost commuting averaged across and subtracted against the number of worked?

Re: Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, report finds

#228

Post by Clanan » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 4:06 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #224

elgenie wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could also read the methodology in the study when it comes out, since describing that is required in science, as opposed to questioning hypothetical methodologies that could be used. From the brief version of the study ( http://ceepr.mit.edu/files/papers/2018-005-Brief.pdf ), it appears they're using per-mile costs and ascribing only the incremental costs on a per-mile basis. > Of the five sources of cost estimat…

You are correct that I used a hypothetical methodology. That's because -- and this is the real problem -- finding the flaw in a specific methodology is a lot of work. It's often not just one thing that throws the numbers off by 200%, it's one thing that throws them off by 12%, then another by 7%, and twenty other little things that add and multiply up to an inaccurate overall conclusion. It can take multiple hours to…

Do other transportation jobs count transportation expenses against the wage? If not, then that is an excellent point. I would assume taxiing, food delivery, etc. would count them.

Re: Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, report finds

#229

Post by BurningFrog » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 4:08 PM UTC

chatmasta wrote: post #192

danpalmer wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it? I'd have thought the opposite. The whole idea behind "ride sharing" is not needing to own a car, but being able to benefit from one when needed.

That’s the idea behind it for the passenger. Remember there’s another person on every side of your Uber transaction, who might have recently bought a car but would not have otherwise.

Yes, but to spell out the obvious: There are a lot more passengers than drivers. This should result in fewer personally owned cars in total.

Re: Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, report finds

#230

Post by malandrew » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 4:09 PM UTC

omarforgotpwd wrote: post #170

davebryand wrote: post #52

I question the authenticity of the $3.37 number when I see that the paper this article references was published by an organization funded by these bodies: Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, BP, ClearPath Foundation, Conoco Phillips, Duke Energy, Electricité de France, EnBW, ENGIE, ENI, Eversource, Exelon Corporation, ExxonMobil, Gas Natural Fenosa, GE, Golden Spread Electric Cooperative, Inc., Iberdrola, IHI Corpo…

Why would those companies want to smear Uber? Many of them profit from uber. Uber sells a ton of gas and cars.

TNCs are accelarating the trend towards having fewer cars and more fuel efficient cars. Basically, they are trying to slow down TNCs so they can maintain their current valuations and prop up shareholder value.