Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap • Hacker News Board

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#221

Post by bb611 » Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 4:47 PM UTC

smn1234 wrote: post #141

roseburg wrote: post #86

I would simplify it and say that learning trade skills is a better investment for most people than attending a 4-year college. Trade skills can be learned at a young age, right from home, where there is room and time to explore and enjoy the learning process. Why we wait until after high school to teach kids in-demand skills boggles my mind. All the pressure in the world arrives after high school. It's time to start…

perhaps a bit controversial but there's the viewpoint that college and the degree you pay for is simply access to a social network / community where as outcome hands-on, trade skills aren't necessary in the chosen career path

This is still absolutely the case for top tier schools - the Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, etc Ivy/West Coast Ivy level schools are all about building a social/professional network that will last the rest of your life. These are also the kinds of schools where financial aid dramatically reduces costs for the majority of students - many of them offer varying levels of financial aid up to family incomes of $180,000/yr.

The problem is public and less selective private colleges that have the same price tag as these schools, but deliver much less value.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#222

Post by esrauch » Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 4:49 PM UTC

malbs wrote: post #173

I wish I'd taken my step-dad up on his offer and done an chippy apprenticeship when I was 17. Instead I flailed around, did some c programming, some web development, never went to uni. I even managed to get myself that first job as a software dev, slowly trading upwards, but it always worked against me that I was a high school drop out and had no degree. Later in life, I looked upon the lack of degree as an asset, I…

For anyone else who doesn't speak British, Chippy = Carpenter

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#223

Post by AnonymousPlanet » Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 4:51 PM UTC

dmoy wrote: post #218

dionidium wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's amazing to me is that there are people who don't feel like they're capable of changing their own doorknob. (I get it; there are some people who would rather just pay, but surely some of these people just don't feel like they could manage this task. That's wild.)

I live in a duplex and my neighbors are always impressed when I do simple things like fix cat5 cable caps, screw/caulk down a loose doorframe trim, or sometimes even just for having basic tools at all. When I was installing my blinds when I first moved in, a group of neighbors from down the street were walking by and asked me (through the open window) if I was the hired help (guess cus I looked too young to be the ow…

> It's like when you see the meme/trope about Ikea furniture being hard to assemble.

Oh dear, I always thought that was about missing parts or pieces not fitting. This gives a new perspective …

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#224

Post by bbarn » Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 4:57 PM UTC

roel_v wrote: post #137

olivermarks wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are asking me I was a graphic designer, mostly print work initially. It's a hybrid trade/skill set that gave me a good business grounding. I grew up in a generation where a lot of my peers in the UK were apprentices at Rolls Royce, Jaguar etc. I have no visibility into apprenticeships and how they are organized today...

It was just a snippy remark hinting at the many people in this thread saying how great trade skills are, yet very few of them actually do a job like that. I mean, commenters here mention 'the social stigma' and how unfair it is - but being a plumber is just a, well, shit job. Construction work isn't fun, when it's your job, and you're not the boss. There's a reason all those middle and lower middle class parents tell…

I sat down with my daughter and very clearly explained why college for her was a bad idea. Her grades and ACT scores weren't good enough to get into lucrative fields, so I suggested she join the military with a specialization that opened skilled trade jobs. We discussed the benefit vs cost of the student loans, and she admitted that this would be a much smarter path and she is looking at very little career opportunity with a psychology degree.

However, you underestimate the machine that is high school and the impact that has on children. Despite all our conversations, her high school "advisor" insisted she go to college and convinced her to ignore the money aspects of it. When every other peer and parent of peer is feeding them the college or nothing lines, you start to look like an asshole being the only objector. How many times can you defend "Why don't you want your kid to go to college??" before you give in. Maybe there's some super-parents out there, and I did my best to show the reasons behind it, but she was 18 and free to make her own choices.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#225

Post by 013a » Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 5:00 PM UTC

TheCowboy wrote: post #209

leetrout wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting. I was a volunteer firefighter from ages 12-19 and while it's not for everyone (and some tasks were not for me) the overall experience during that time in my life taught me a lot of values that you don't get in sports / schooling... the value of a human life- and that is- that you would put yours on the line for theirs. Not to mention to see someone TRULY in need and being equipped to provide that…

>they try to "smart-shame" those that have / persue "book smarts" I suspect this anti-intellectual attitude is underrated as a key problem in American culture. There could be greater value for lifelong learning, science (as in valuing empiricism over arbitrarily inventing your own facts), problem-solving oriented attitudes, and open-ended discussion. People shouldn't feel complacent and act like they don't have room…

This is a tangent to your comment: Its pretty common to see people complain about anti-intellectualism as a big problem in modern society. Then, you ask people like Mike Rowe (and I'd bet the author of this article) what the biggest problem is and they'd say its anti-blue collar.

At first I thought these two ideas were at ends, but the more I think about it the more I wonder if the real root concern should just be that too many people are anti-work, either physical or mental.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#226

Post by bpyne » Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 5:04 PM UTC

leetrout wrote: post #192

bpyne wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment reminded me of an essay Paul Graham wrote. (See the link below.) He argues that modern society has taken kids, isolated them from participating in greater society, and made school a "job" to them. The consequence is that teenagers feel out of step with society because they don't participate in it, the way that they did when apprenticeships were common. This observation supports the premise of the essay.…

That's interesting. I was a volunteer firefighter from ages 12-19 and while it's not for everyone (and some tasks were not for me) the overall experience during that time in my life taught me a lot of values that you don't get in sports / schooling... the value of a human life- and that is- that you would put yours on the line for theirs. Not to mention to see someone TRULY in need and being equipped to provide that…

Actress Gal Gadot talked about serving in the Israeli military. I'm paraphrasing, but she said it taught her that there are bigger things in life than herself. It sounds like you had a similar experience as a volunteer firefighter.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#227

Post by logicalmind » Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 5:05 PM UTC

GuiA wrote: post #213

logicalmind wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I come from a blue collar family. I was the first person in my family to graduate college. But that wasn't my plan initially. During summers in high school I worked installing HVAC systems. After graduating high school I started a plumbing apprenticeship. It was what I discovered during that apprenticeship that made me decide to go to college instead (during college I had a job doing carpentry as well). I'm not sayin…

Obviously not to discount your experience - but I come from a family of carpenters, on my mom's side, and do not observe the issues you describe in my family. My grandfather, for instance, is still extremely healthy in every way at 82 or so, drinks a glass of wine or pastis every few days, and is generally enjoying retired life. The main difference is that I am from France, and as such my family enjoyed all of the so…

Yes, my experience is in Midwestern USA. Other places may be quite different. Generally, the way it works here is that there are two main trade paths. One is as part of a union, which is mostly new construction. The second is non-union, which is often replacement and/or service of equipment.

If you're in a union, you basically pay union dues so that the union represents your interests. The power of unions vary widely in terms of healthcare, pensions, jobs available, etc. You get paid via a "scale" based on tenure. But in general, when new construction comes up (houses, skyscrapers, power plants, etc.) you get allocated to those jobs based on your tenure. You may work the same jobsite for years, or maybe a month. It just depends on how big the job is.

Alternatively, if your toilet is clogged, or a pipe is leaking, that is generally a service call. And that is handled, typically, by non-union work. With non-union work, you work specifically for a company. That company provides you with whatever benefits they offer (healthcare, retirement, etc.). When you work service, it almost always includes an "on-call" rotation. You get paid whatever hourly rate you can negotiate with the company and get paid overtime for off-hours work.

Unions are closest to what it sounds like you have in France. But trade unions here have lost much of their power over the years.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#228

Post by srtjstjsj » Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 5:06 PM UTC

GuiA wrote: post #217

dionidium wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's amazing to me is that there are people who don't feel like they're capable of changing their own doorknob. (I get it; there are some people who would rather just pay, but surely some of these people just don't feel like they could manage this task. That's wild.)

That's wild to me too, but rich lazy people who subcontract out everything is much better for society than rich people who hoard their money forever, so I'm certainly not going to shame them about it :)

maybe they are rich because they work hard/long for more than $30/hr ?

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#229

Post by srtjstjsj » Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 5:08 PM UTC

Harvey-Specter wrote: post #154

MarkMc wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds odd. Why don't roofers increase their fees until supply matches demand?

I would guess that roofing services have inelastic demand, meaning that a change in price doesn't affect demand much. A home owner often doesn't have much choice about whether or not to repair their roof, if it needs to be done then it needs to be done.

That's only true if the supply side of the market is non competitive.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#230

Post by jmcqk6 » Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 5:08 PM UTC

analog31 wrote: post #60

indubitable wrote: post #37

Another idea, indirectly related, is to simply stop treating all university degrees equally. The whole reason student loans are so broken right now is because they cannot be dismissed, so lenders are incentivized to lend with reckless abandon. In the worst case scenario the loan converts into a lifetime rent on an individual that automatically adjusts for inflation. On the other hand, the idea behind creating special…

In my view, this idea runs the danger of creating a planned economy, with characteristic boom-bust cycles and scams. The choice of which degrees to fund has to be made on either past data or some sort of current fad. The list of preferred degrees will of course create competition to get into those programs, but it may also encourage colleges to create watered-down or even fake disciplines that can absorb more student…

>a planned economy, with characteristic boom-bust cycles and scams.

You can cut the word "planned". Evidence shows that this is a natural part of economies with pretty well understood reasons related to the credit cycle.