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Intel Reveals Post-8th Gen. Core Architecture 10nm+ Ice Lake

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Re: Intel Reveals Post-8th Gen. Core Architecture 10nm+ Ice Lake

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The step from 14 to 10 nm is huge . Both from a technological perspective on the manufacturing side as well as on the effect it will have to the number of transistors on a die and the power consumption of those transistors. Remember that power consumption and the number of transistors are related to the surface area so there is a square factor in there. 14 nm ^2 = 196, 10 nm ^2 = 100, so that's almost a doubling of t…

Yeah, so the node names now apparently refer to the "smallest feature size", which is some random thing on the M0 metal layer. Source - from a former Intel engineer for more than a decade

So not like when games consoles used to advertise how many "bits" they had: take whatever has the widest bus and advertise that as the number of "bits" or use tricks like the Atari Jaguar: 2x 32bit cpu's = 64bit, right? RIGHT?

Re: Intel Reveals Post-8th Gen. Core Architecture 10nm+ Ice Lake

#222
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well actually I think it's more a case of "increase in performance is becoming harder and harder, the technology leader (Intel) is slowly becoming stuck and the competition (AMD) is catching up". Everybody will be more or less at the same level as it requires huge investments to only get a marginal advantage. Apart from games, I would not be that afraid to install recent pieces of software (browser, office suit, os)…

Apart from games, I would not be that afraid to install recent pieces of software (browser, office suit, os) on a 10 years old computer (2007 core 2 duo). But in 2007 I would not have thought for a minute that I could do the same on a 1997 computer (Pentium II), and installing 1997 software on a 1987 computer (80386), just no. People like to say a Core 2 Duo can still hang, and while it might be okay for basic tasks…

Well, I'm not denying that, I'm exactly in that situation for my laptop:

2007 thinkpad x61, core 2 duo T7100, but with 4GB of RAM and an SSD, to be fair I'm cheating a little as I use Debian+DWM which is lighter than Windows 10.

But it holds itself pretty well and CPU limitation will probably not be the reason I change it. The screen resolution (1024x768) will probably be the main motivator.

But this only illustrates that there were some improvement because of RAM evoluation (4 to 8 GB or RAM now for average PCs vs 1 to 2 GB back then) and huge improvement because of disk evolution (SSD vs mechanical drives). CPU is far from being the main improvement factor for common usage in the last 10 years.

Re: Intel Reveals Post-8th Gen. Core Architecture 10nm+ Ice Lake

#223
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Atom has actually gotten significantly faster recently. It seems they've started to rewrite some core components of it in C++ for performance reasons. I've also used some Electron apps that are very lean. I think it's more of an implementation issue. Slack is pretty terrible at resource usage, for example, but Zeit's Hyper is very efficient & it's resource usage is comparable to iTerm in my experience. Slack's issues…

> Zeit's Hyper is very efficient Ladies and gentlemen! I present you the efficient terminal application, which only needs: Process Memory Threads ------- --------- ------- Hyper 40.8 MB 32 Hyper Helper 51.9 MB 15 Hyper Helper 18.8 MB 12 Hyper Helper 15.2 MB 4 Total: 126.7 MB 64 On a serious note, I think the insanity will stop when the operating systems will start shaming badly written applications and nudge users to…

macOS already does present a list of apps that are using a lot of energy if you click on the battery indicator. I thought that Windows had a similar feature, but I'm not sure.

Re: Intel Reveals Post-8th Gen. Core Architecture 10nm+ Ice Lake

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GPUs: http://michaelgalloy.com/2013/06/11/cpu-vs-gpu-performance.h... http://www.anandtech.com/show/7603/mac-pro-review-late-2013/... This is behind much of the interest in machine learning these days. Deep learning provides a way to approximate any computable function as the composition of matrix operations with non-linearities. It does this at the cost of requiring many, many times the computing power. But much of…

"Deep learning provides a way to approximate any computable function as the composition of matrix operations with non-linearities." Thanks, and I wish this sentence was one of the first things I read when I was trying to figure out exactly what Deep Learning really meant. It's much more comprehensible than the semi-magical descriptions that seem far more prevalent in introductory articles. It's also fascinating that…

"Deep learning provides a way to approximate any computable function as the composition of matrix operations with non-linearities."

This actually describes neural networks in general, not so much "deep learning".

Deep learning comes from being able to scale up neural networks from having only a few 10s or 100s of nodes per layer, to thousands and 10s of thousands of nodes per layer (and of course the combinatorial explosion of edges in the network graph between layers), coupled with the ability to process and use massive datasets to train with, and ultimately process on the trained model.

This has mainly been enabled by the cheap availability of GPUs and other parallel architectures, coupled with fast memory interconnects (both to hold the model and to shuttle data in/out of it for training and later processing) and the CPU (probably disk, too).

But neural networks have almost always been represented by matrix operations (linear algebra), it's just that there wasn't the data, nor the vast (and cheap) numbers of parallelizable processing elements available to handle it (the closest architectures I can think of that could potentially do it in the 1980/90s would be from Thinking Machines (Connection Machines) and probably systolic array processors (which were pretty niche at the time, mainly from CMU):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systolic_array

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WARP_(systolic_array)

These latter machines started to prove some of what we take for granted today, in the form of the NAVLAB ALVINN self-driving vehicle:

http://repository.cmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2874&c...

Of course, today it can be done on a smartphone:

http://blog.davidsingleton.org/nnrccar/

The point, though, is that neural networks have long been known to be most effectively computed using matrix operations, it's just that the hardware wasn't there (unless you had a lot of money to spend) nor the datasets - to enable what we today call "deep learning".

That, and AI winters didn't help matters. I would imagine that if somebody from the late 1980s had asked for 100 million to build or purchase a large parallel processing system of some form for neural network research - they would've been laughed at. Of course, no one at that time really knew that what was needed was such large architecture, nor the amount of data (plus the concept of convolutional NNs and other recent model architectures weren't yet around). Also - programming for such a system would have been extremely difficult.

So - today is the "perfect storm", of hardware, data, and software (and people who know how to use and abuse it, of course).

Re: Intel Reveals Post-8th Gen. Core Architecture 10nm+ Ice Lake

#225
post #149

In retrospective, Intel should have bought NVidia when they had the chance; GPUs is the only area making huge progress year to year now.

Besides GPUs, memory (DRAM), storage (SSDs, hard drives), wired networking (Ethernet, Thunderbolt, Fibre Channel), wireless networking (WiFi, Bluetooth, cellular) and displays (monitors, VR) are all still keeping pace with their respective versions of Moore's Law. Of course they still aren't going to catch up to CPUs any time soon. (Never in the case of networking, since light travels only so fast).

Re: Intel Reveals Post-8th Gen. Core Architecture 10nm+ Ice Lake

#226
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intel didn't buy NVIDIA, but they did buy Altera, and there's plenty of room for growth with FPGAs.

Aren't FPGAs mainly for design phase and the real crunching in the industry done on ASICs? At least whole automotive industry works that way - FPGAs to design/test stuff, ASICs for production and making money.

Note the FP of FPGA - "field programmable".

What this means is that to implement the hardware the FPGA represents, you have to "program" it; this is typically done in one of only a couple HLLs (VHDL and Verilog, known as Hardware Descriptor Languages or HDLs).

At one time, Xilinx (Altera's competitor) made an FPGA which could be programmed "on the fly" very quickly; it (well, many thousands) were used for an interesting machine, of which only a few examples survive (the whole thing at the time was surreal, if you followed it - it seemed like a scam more than anything, but real hardware was shipped).

This machine was called the CAM-Brain machine, and was the creation of researcher Hugo de Garis (who is retired, and is a seemingly strange fellow in the AI community - but not as strange as Mentifex):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_de_Garis

http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=591856

https://profhugodegaris.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/arj-rev2...

I encourage you to research this machine, and Mr de Garis, as the whole thing is fascinating (and I will also say, from a design perspective, the shipped CAM-Brain Machine was one of the "sexiest" looking boxen since the early Crays).

CAM-Brain meant "cellular automata machine brain" - it was basically an effort to evolve a neural network using CA and FPGA; the CA would evolve the HDL which described the hardware representation of the NN, which would then be dumped to the FPGA for processing. The process (from what I understand) was iterative.

I don't believe the "kitten" ever went past much more than some early 3D models (maybe some CAD, too) and a software simulator. At least, that's what you can still find out there today (images of the simulator running on Windows NT, iirc).

The effort was noble, but it didn't work for more than simple things. I think it was part of the "evolve-a-brain" NN dead end, which seemed to hold out some promise at the time.

That's just a bit of background, but it shows how Intel and FPGAs can be used for building hardware to represent neural networks (a GPU/TPU is not a neural network - it is merely a processor for the software representation of the neural network). Whether that's their intention, or something else (maybe something like Transmeta tried?) - only they know.

Re: Intel Reveals Post-8th Gen. Core Architecture 10nm+ Ice Lake

#227
post #226
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't FPGAs mainly for design phase and the real crunching in the industry done on ASICs? At least whole automotive industry works that way - FPGAs to design/test stuff, ASICs for production and making money.

Note the FP of FPGA - "field programmable". What this means is that to implement the hardware the FPGA represents, you have to "program" it; this is typically done in one of only a couple HLLs (VHDL and Verilog, known as Hardware Descriptor Languages or HDLs). At one time, Xilinx (Altera's competitor) made an FPGA which could be programmed "on the fly" very quickly; it (well, many thousands) were used for an interest…

That's pretty cool! Thanks for sharing this! I'll take a detailed look at it :)

Re: Intel Reveals Post-8th Gen. Core Architecture 10nm+ Ice Lake

#228
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Atom has actually gotten significantly faster recently. It seems they've started to rewrite some core components of it in C++ for performance reasons. I've also used some Electron apps that are very lean. I think it's more of an implementation issue. Slack is pretty terrible at resource usage, for example, but Zeit's Hyper is very efficient & it's resource usage is comparable to iTerm in my experience. Slack's issues…

> Zeit's Hyper is very efficient Ladies and gentlemen! I present you the efficient terminal application, which only needs: Process Memory Threads ------- --------- ------- Hyper 40.8 MB 32 Hyper Helper 51.9 MB 15 Hyper Helper 18.8 MB 12 Hyper Helper 15.2 MB 4 Total: 126.7 MB 64 On a serious note, I think the insanity will stop when the operating systems will start shaming badly written applications and nudge users to…

That's a lot more threads than iTerm uses for me, but it's less memory. Typically my work computer (a 2015 15" MBP) tends to be bottlenecked on RAM, too. 16GB sadly is pretty much the minimum viable amount of RAM for me to do full stack development these days.

Re: Intel Reveals Post-8th Gen. Core Architecture 10nm+ Ice Lake

#229
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well actually I think it's more a case of "increase in performance is becoming harder and harder, the technology leader (Intel) is slowly becoming stuck and the competition (AMD) is catching up". Everybody will be more or less at the same level as it requires huge investments to only get a marginal advantage. Apart from games, I would not be that afraid to install recent pieces of software (browser, office suit, os)…

Gains in instructions-per-clock start to flatten out. And that's where the gains were coming from in the last years. Some time ago a paper was posted here that showed how even if you have an infinite amount of transistors, you will still be limited in the range of 3-10 instructions-per-clock for typical programs. Clock speeds seem to have leveled and IPC will only see another gain of 50-100%. Single threaded performa…

It's not the end, if we as software developers can stop counting on the hardware folks to improve performance and do the hard work necessary to parallelize our apps. (This includes migrating components to use SIMD and/or GPUs as appropriate.)

Re: Intel Reveals Post-8th Gen. Core Architecture 10nm+ Ice Lake

#230
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Zeit's Hyper is very efficient Ladies and gentlemen! I present you the efficient terminal application, which only needs: Process Memory Threads ------- --------- ------- Hyper 40.8 MB 32 Hyper Helper 51.9 MB 15 Hyper Helper 18.8 MB 12 Hyper Helper 15.2 MB 4 Total: 126.7 MB 64 On a serious note, I think the insanity will stop when the operating systems will start shaming badly written applications and nudge users to…

macOS already does present a list of apps that are using a lot of energy if you click on the battery indicator. I thought that Windows had a similar feature, but I'm not sure.

I don't know how useful that feature is for the purpose of "shaming" given that i have never seen Slack on that list on my Macbook pro.
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