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I'm a creep. I'm sorry

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Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#221

Post by aortega »

throwaway055 wrote: post #130
liquidise wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question, maybe one best asked to my female friends: at what point does propositioning someone transition from simply not mutual attraction to sexual harassment? The definition is broad and says making "unwanted sexual advances or obscene remarks". Is there a line drawn between romantic and sexual propositioning? I'm not looking to be intentionally obtuse here, i'm more trying to make sense of the legal nature…

The word "unwanted" is troubling, because it means the alleged victim gets to personally decide whether the act was illegal/punishable or not, based entirely on their own subjective feelings. So I guess, if you're good looking, it's legal, and maybe you end up marrying and having children (as people often do in these situations). If you're not good looking, it's a violation and you should be fired/prosecuted. This de…

IANAL but I saw some comments from one, apparently in USA you have to consistently do unwanted approaches for a long time to be considered sexual harassment.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#222

Post by saghm »

spydum wrote: post #132
learc83 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When there is a big power difference for one. If you have control over someone's livelihood, propositioning them is inappropriate.

Just curious doesn't this further stratify the power classes? I can't make advances on someone who earns less than me now?

It has nothing to do with salaries; if you're in a position to make decisions about someone's future (hiring them, firing them, etc.), it's not appropriate.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#223

Post by kakarot »

spamizbad wrote: post #156
hendzen wrote: post #142

Caveat, McClure's behavior was bad. But seeing recent public floggings for misbehavior I now wonder if people are feeling a bit hypersensitive/cautious about any workplace conduct that could potentially be perceived as harassment. Case in point. You work at a technology company. You are attracted to another coworker, who is NOT your subordinate. Is there some manner in which it is acceptable to express your interest?…

I think asking coworkers out is a huge no-no. If the only people in your orbit you feel you can connect with that way are at work, that's a sign your personal life needs some development. However, let's say you have a robust personal life, and you just have this absolutely amazing co-worker, who totally is not your subordinate, and ideally you don't even work directly with, and you want to ask them out... again.. I d…

> I think asking coworkers out is a huge no-no

No way. It's a case by case basis. If someone legitimately seems interested in you, and you are interested in them, there's nothing wrong with asking them if they want to get a bite to eat or something once. Baby steps. It's just inappropriate to immediately reach for the "let's go out" or a romantic advance, and especially inappropriate to "pursue" someone. This is true in almost every social sphere, not just the workplace. It's called being a gentleman.

The idea is to be a gentleman, not a creep. Whether at a bar or at the park or at work.

The only difference as far as the workplace is if you have some sort of position of power above the other employee. Even if you somehow maintain complete impartiality to them, others will probably not see it that way and think it unfair to them. Not to mention that 9.9/10 times someone doesn't want to be hit on by their boss.

You gotta understand, for many people their work life and personal life are the same. A lot of happy couples met in the workplace.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#224

Post by 0x8BADF00D »

liquidise wrote: post #92
chasing wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fun fact: You don't have the right to be creepy or predatory towards women just because alcohol is involved. Women have the right to go out for drinks with coworkers without being sexually harassed.

Honest question, maybe one best asked to my female friends: at what point does propositioning someone transition from simply not mutual attraction to sexual harassment? The definition is broad and says making "unwanted sexual advances or obscene remarks". Is there a line drawn between romantic and sexual propositioning? I'm not looking to be intentionally obtuse here, i'm more trying to make sense of the legal nature…

> Honest question, maybe one best asked to my female friends: at what point does propositioning someone transition from simply not mutual attraction to sexual harassment?

It's fairly obvious and self-evident. I consider myself to be on the autism spectrum, and even I know when a female friend is not interested in a romantic or sexual relationship.

Like the legal test for obscenity: I know it when I see it.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#225

Post by nulldev »

pjzedalis wrote: post #144
mojowo11 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to be confrontational here (or argue with your primary point), but I'm pretty sure you didn't read the whole post. It says in the post that he's been going attending regular counseling already.

Good catch. I did read that but misplaced it when replying. I am glad he is seeking help but I hope its for purposes of identifying his desires/behaviors and not only mandated by circumstance.

> I did read that but misplaced it when replying.

This is some of the most ridiculous phrasing I've ever come across.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#226

Post by deepGem »

Zarath wrote: post #214
deepGem wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are many polite ways of expressing interest, just like you would express interest in any other social setting. I don't think that's inappropriate at all - for example to politely ask out for a coffee, obviously not at the workplace, but somewhere outside. However, in the light of recent activities, I would be quite cautious of any such moves, inherently. The last thing you want is for your actions to be…

Nobody reasonable is going to misinterpret a request for coffee as sexual harassment unless you are socially inept. "Hey, do you want to get coffee sometime?" "Oh, no thanks" "Ok, cool. No problem" Proceed to move on with your life.

Absolutely, reasonable is the key word here.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#228

Post by ithinkinstereo »

theWatcher37 wrote: post #176
3327 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on. All these guys who claim they are so smart and well rounded now all of a sudden are doing "I'm Sorry" posts as if they didn't know. WTF - of course they all were aware. Its easy acting all matter of fact and smart with everything else and then "I'm Sorry". Refer them to a public prosecutor because examples are needed for this to stop. We need some examples to be made.

This post is a perfect example of what I've mentioned elsewhere. If you ever find yourself in this person's shoes (innocent or guilty) you have nothing to gain by this sort of public display of remorse/sepukku as others have called it. This type of angry, vitriolic, hate-filled-person will condemn you no matter if your apologies are sincere or not. The only logical move is to deny, people like the poster above will n…

Apologies like McClure are insincere because his behavior has likely been going on for years; targeting many many women (at least 6 according to his accuser); and because McClure knew then, as he does now, that he was in the wrong.

Why do you think he is apologizing? Do you really think he is sorry or just sorry he got caught? I'm sure he is sincere, sincere that he feels bad that he got caught and is now suffering the consequences. This is just like the murderer who cries crocodile tears during sentencing.

Occam's razor. A devil does not become a saint overnight.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#229

Post by draw_down »

neurotech1 wrote: post #183

His response reminded me of the famous 'Asoh Defense', when Captain Kohei Asoh accidently put a perfectly good plane into the water on approach to SFO [0] > Asoh, when asked by the NTSB about the landing, reportedly replied, "As you Americans say, I f__d up." In his 1988 book The Abilene Paradox, author Jerry B. Harvey termed this frank acceptance of blame the "Asoh defense", and the story and term have been taken up…

One could also term it "adult behavior".

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#230

Post by macspoofing »

genieyclo wrote: post #213
macspoofing wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. That's not right. Don't be stupid. People meet romantic partners and spouses at work all the time - are they all sexual harassers? The true answer is: "It depends".

Don't shit where you eat is a sensible, safe rule to live by; ymmv.

I wonder about people like you. Do you live in the real world, and interact with real people? Do you have real friends? Because it doesn't sound like it.

Not dating your coworkers is a sensible rule that some people follow and some companies may have policies around ... but a rule you have no hope in expecting to be universally adhered to. Case in point: The sheer number of (happy and unhappy) couples who met at work.

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