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I'm a creep. I'm sorry

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Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#131

Post by matt-attack »

meowface wrote: post #71
[deleted] wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

>Do you send just one job application when you're trying to find a new job? No, but if it's a lucrative job that I really want to work at, then the hiring manager definitely has power over me. >That assumes that transaction is somehow not mutually beneficial. It is mutually beneficial, but you're probably looking at a 30:1 (or higher) benefit ratio here, in his favor. > In the end, she's the one that has power over h…

> It is mutually beneficial, but you're probably looking at a 30:1 (or higher) benefit ratio here, in his favor.

Sorry that's wrong. What you're saying is she's overpaid by a factor of 30. Kind of insulting to her no?

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#132

Post by spydum »

learc83 wrote: post #117
liquidise wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question, maybe one best asked to my female friends: at what point does propositioning someone transition from simply not mutual attraction to sexual harassment? The definition is broad and says making "unwanted sexual advances or obscene remarks". Is there a line drawn between romantic and sexual propositioning? I'm not looking to be intentionally obtuse here, i'm more trying to make sense of the legal nature…

When there is a big power difference for one. If you have control over someone's livelihood, propositioning them is inappropriate.

Just curious doesn't this further stratify the power classes? I can't make advances on someone who earns less than me now?

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#133

Post by chasing »

liquidise wrote: post #92
chasing wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fun fact: You don't have the right to be creepy or predatory towards women just because alcohol is involved. Women have the right to go out for drinks with coworkers without being sexually harassed.

Honest question, maybe one best asked to my female friends: at what point does propositioning someone transition from simply not mutual attraction to sexual harassment? The definition is broad and says making "unwanted sexual advances or obscene remarks". Is there a line drawn between romantic and sexual propositioning? I'm not looking to be intentionally obtuse here, i'm more trying to make sense of the legal nature…

You should ask your female friends! In all seriousness.

Maybe my basic advice is: Don't "proposition" people. Forget the phrase "hit on." Don't lead with your dick.

Meet people. Learn about them. Establish rapport. Maybe something happens, maybe not. When people are legitimately excited by one another, romance can follow. But be respectful enough to not cause harm. Don't interfere with their work life. Don't accidentally or purposefully threaten their careers or companies. Do no harm. Maybe you miss out on a romantic encounter or two, but you'll be a better person. You might actually get some really cool friendships out of it! And when actual sparks fly, you'll know it and it'll be great.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#134

Post by jakevoytko »

liquidise wrote: post #92
chasing wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fun fact: You don't have the right to be creepy or predatory towards women just because alcohol is involved. Women have the right to go out for drinks with coworkers without being sexually harassed.

Honest question, maybe one best asked to my female friends: at what point does propositioning someone transition from simply not mutual attraction to sexual harassment? The definition is broad and says making "unwanted sexual advances or obscene remarks". Is there a line drawn between romantic and sexual propositioning? I'm not looking to be intentionally obtuse here, i'm more trying to make sense of the legal nature…

IANAL, etc. Some common themes of sexual harassment training I've taken:

- Boorish behavior crosses the line the first time. Assume this follows the "would you want it published in the New York Times?" rule of thumb.

- For more ambiguous cases (like asking someone on a date,) it's only OK if you don't actually know if the advance is welcome. Once you get an answer, and it's "no," then anything else is an unwelcome advance. I actually saw someone fired because of this, so don't take it lightly.

- Sexual harassment laws exist to protect people against those with positions of power. One training instructor said, "the reason the laws are designed protect your reports against you, and not the other way around, is because you can fire them."

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#135

Post by jayd16 »

cylinder wrote: post #8

I've got to wonder, why do coworkers go out for drinks if it's not a social setting? I don't understand the logic of mixing alcohol with colleagues if you're still under the "workplace" umbrella.

A casual and jovial atmosphere doesn't alleviate you from social consequences.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#136

Post by mojowo11 »

pjzedalis wrote: post #123

He completely misses the forests from the trees. Had the woman been hired she would have been denied by him the satisfaction of knowing she earned the position through her hard work, intelligence, and capabilities. He also does not seem to recognize why he is a creep. Ultimately we find people creepy when they portray themselves and their motives one way and yet secretly or covertly act another. I recommend therapy s…

Not to be confrontational here (or argue with your primary point), but I'm pretty sure you didn't read the whole post. It says in the post that he's been going attending regular counseling already.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#137

Post by chasing »

throwaway055 wrote: post #130
liquidise wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question, maybe one best asked to my female friends: at what point does propositioning someone transition from simply not mutual attraction to sexual harassment? The definition is broad and says making "unwanted sexual advances or obscene remarks". Is there a line drawn between romantic and sexual propositioning? I'm not looking to be intentionally obtuse here, i'm more trying to make sense of the legal nature…

The word "unwanted" is troubling, because it means the alleged victim gets to personally decide whether the act was illegal/punishable or not, based entirely on their own subjective feelings. So I guess, if you're good looking, it's legal, and maybe you end up marrying and having children (as people often do in these situations). If you're not good looking, it's a violation and you should be fired/prosecuted. This de…

This is the wrong answer.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#138

Post by criddell »

taurath wrote: post #113
caseysoftware wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are dozens, hundreds of events ranging from meetups to conference parties to pitch events to just about everything else that often involve drinks or going out for drinks immediately before/after with other participants. Whether that's "social" or a "professional" setting is hotly debated but regardless, it's the norm. Throw in social media and it is very easy (still not appropriate) to blur lines.

If you have a job where you are working 12 hour days and weekends, your job is your life. I am actually curious when would an actual appropriate time to ask someone on a date might be - clearly the second someone brings up professional stuff, it should be out the door, but the veil of that can be breached with a simple "what have you been working on lately"

> when would an actual appropriate time to ask someone on a date might be

If you are in a position of power over another person, I would say there isn't an appropriate time. The number of hours you work isn't really relevant.

Put it this way: when is an appropriate time for a college professor (that works long hours!) to ask a student out on a date?

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#139

Post by throwaway055 »

chasing wrote: post #137
throwaway055 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word "unwanted" is troubling, because it means the alleged victim gets to personally decide whether the act was illegal/punishable or not, based entirely on their own subjective feelings. So I guess, if you're good looking, it's legal, and maybe you end up marrying and having children (as people often do in these situations). If you're not good looking, it's a violation and you should be fired/prosecuted. This de…

This is the wrong answer.

I wasn't asked a question and didn't provide an answer (or even a proposal), but I understand that having a rational discussion on this topic is difficult or impossible for most people, and I'm sorry if I offended you.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#140

Post by [deleted] »

caseysoftware wrote: post #88
sergiotapia wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I immediately thought odd it was to meet like that over drinks with a group of people. That's never not been social for me. So I'm glad he painted a picture.

There are dozens, hundreds of events ranging from meetups to conference parties to pitch events to just about everything else that often involve drinks or going out for drinks immediately before/after with other participants. Whether that's "social" or a "professional" setting is hotly debated but regardless, it's the norm. Throw in social media and it is very easy (still not appropriate) to blur lines.

[deleted]
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