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How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

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Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#221
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The myth that an external force can drive otherwise-sane people to suicide merely by disapproving of some of their behaviors needs to go. It is, ironically, perpetuated to shame and humiliate political opponents, by insidiously attempting to saddle them with responsibility for the deaths of the depressed and mentally ill. Healthy people do not commit suicide, and they certainly don't over issues as ethereal and incon…

> The myth that an external force can drive otherwise-sane people to suicide merely by disapproving of some of their behaviors needs to go. It's not a myth. It's reasonably well established now that LGBT youth are at increased risk of suicide, and that the rates of death in LGBT youth are higher in areas that have lower acceptance of LGBT youth. The rest of your post is full of inaccuracies about suicide. You need to…

Restating the point does not constitute a rebuttal. I understand that there is a myth along these lines. The myth, of course, specifies that homosexuals feel oppression, which causes them to commit suicide.

I also understand that people have published documents to attempt to give support to this myth that suicide is correlated with the quantity of social approval.

This has several loose ends, like "How are LGBT youth identified, and is that method reliable, particularly with reference to the effect of puberty and hormonal changes on sexual inclinations?", "Are there other regional factors that are better explanations for the increased teen suicide rate? [e.g., areas with 'less social acceptance' for LGBT may also have increased poverty, decreased access to mental health services, etc.]", "Do we see this affect of suicide motivated solely by social approval among other groups, including those whose oppression and/or isolation is much more serious or intense?", and so on.

As with most publications dealing with controversial issues in the soft sciences, there is plenty of room for disagreement, and on inspection, it usually becomes clear that the publication is intended to promote a particular agenda or conclusion rather than to break through to new objective understandings or research. This is true across the spectrum, and it's why you have both left-wing and right-wing "think tanks".

This myth is a transparent political device intended to humiliate and silence those who'd disagree, and we've had weak enough backbones the last 30 years or so that we've allowed it to work.

EDIT: Your edit is a good example of the lecturing, elitist tone used in shame-based political opposition. It's funny that you single out the term "commit suicide" as some type of indicator, like we're to believe that suicide is not something that someone does, but rather a random accidental event.

Again, I fully understand that there are people who will wrap such absurd conclusions in dense, self-indulgent academic babble and pretend like this grants it credibility, but most people have a sense of connection to reality, a limit on their willing suspension of disbelief invoked by the academic credential, that disallows such disconnected, convoluted logic from taking hold.

The funny thing here is that the purveyors of these theories hardly realize the vast amount of religiosity that goes into their willingness to believe not just the unfalsifiable and supernatural, but the clearly hysterical and nonsensical conclusions that these groups and organizations emit.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#222
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where do we draw the line? Beliefs that cause an increase in death by suicide probably need to be looked at to see if they're really that important.

The myth that an external force can drive otherwise-sane people to suicide merely by disapproving of some of their behaviors needs to go. It is, ironically, perpetuated to shame and humiliate political opponents, by insidiously attempting to saddle them with responsibility for the deaths of the depressed and mentally ill. Healthy people do not commit suicide, and they certainly don't over issues as ethereal and incon…

Shame is indeed what this is all about.

> Healthy people do not commit suicide, and they certainly don't over issues as ethereal and inconsequential as some religion's disapproval.

You don't really seem to think your religion's tenets are "ethereal and inconsequential".

> If the argument is that it's about the typical human response to homosexual conduct being so negative that it drives people over the edge, I don't see how the Mormon church [...] could have any culpability for that

Then I encourage you to read more about the phenomenon.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#223
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The myth that an external force can drive otherwise-sane people to suicide merely by disapproving of some of their behaviors needs to go. It's not a myth. It's reasonably well established now that LGBT youth are at increased risk of suicide, and that the rates of death in LGBT youth are higher in areas that have lower acceptance of LGBT youth. The rest of your post is full of inaccuracies about suicide. You need to…

Restating the point does not constitute a rebuttal. I understand that there is a myth along these lines. The myth, of course, specifies that homosexuals feel oppression, which causes them to commit suicide. I also understand that people have published documents to attempt to give support to this myth that suicide is correlated with the quantity of social approval. This has several loose ends, like "How are LGBT youth…

Careful my friend. You are veering into dangerous heresy.

You must return to the path of moral relativism (for certain behaviors only of course. owning a gun or voting for Donald Trump or using jQuery are just plain wrong end of debate.) and LSD micro-dosing for cognitive enhancement. Our dear departed Saint Steve Jobs (who has done more for mankind than anyone, like ever) is deeply unhappy right now and soon it may be necessary to convene a Silicon Valley church court to determine your fitness to continue in the group. The purpose of this is of course not to punish, but rather to help you see the error of your way and bring you back into the fold.

I'd like to suggest a period of Visappa mediation followed by a wheat-grass juice fast while you prayerfully consider your transgressions. Then a Medium blog post titled "I Know I Need to Change My Ways." Look to Travis Kalanick if you need any inspiration.

In closing, I'd like to bear my testimony that I know strong AI is soon upon us and the singularity will come to be. I am willfully considering you with positive energy as I furiously develop binary trees in Haskell and Rust. Amen.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#224
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The myth that an external force can drive otherwise-sane people to suicide merely by disapproving of some of their behaviors needs to go. It's not a myth. It's reasonably well established now that LGBT youth are at increased risk of suicide, and that the rates of death in LGBT youth are higher in areas that have lower acceptance of LGBT youth. The rest of your post is full of inaccuracies about suicide. You need to…

Restating the point does not constitute a rebuttal. I understand that there is a myth along these lines. The myth, of course, specifies that homosexuals feel oppression, which causes them to commit suicide. I also understand that people have published documents to attempt to give support to this myth that suicide is correlated with the quantity of social approval. This has several loose ends, like "How are LGBT youth…

> This myth is a transparent political device intended to humiliate and silence those who'd disagree

No, it really isn't.

Try to imagine what it's like to be a teenager and realize you're gay. What if you had been gay? How would your parents have reacted? Your grandparents? Your friends? Wouldn't they have let you know, however subtly, that you had let them down, that you were no longer the same person to them, no longer someone they could feel proud of and close to? Even if they all made an effort to be outwardly polite -- and it would be remarkable if all of them did -- can't you see how that would make it even worse? Wouldn't you feel ashamed???

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, maybe things are in the process of changing, but gay Mormons will not feel completely comfortable until the doctrine forbidding homosexual behavior is consigned to the dustbin of history. You can't say that the behavior is forbidden without having some residue of the belief that homosexuality is inherently sinful, and that residue has impact on people no matter how much you paper over it by trying to be "warm a…

The idea that desires and attractions must be acted on is an incredibly immature position, sexual or not. Determining if, when, how much, and in what way you should act on your appetites, attractions, or desires is part of what being a mature adult is about. You also seem to be suggesting that disordered attractions can't exist, as if they are infallible, unquestionable, even divine in origin, or that you've somehow…

> "the gay lifestyle"

There's only one, is there? Stereotype, much?

I know several committed gay couples. Is that "the gay lifestyle" that you have in mind?

For one of them to cheat on their partner would be destructive, that's true. That applies independent of the genders involved, doesn't it?

As for singles who have made no commitments but still have sex with one another, is that more immoral if they're gay than if they're straight? I don't think it's immoral in either case, but if you do, I still don't see how gender preference enters into it.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, maybe things are in the process of changing, but gay Mormons will not feel completely comfortable until the doctrine forbidding homosexual behavior is consigned to the dustbin of history. You can't say that the behavior is forbidden without having some residue of the belief that homosexuality is inherently sinful, and that residue has impact on people no matter how much you paper over it by trying to be "warm a…

Mormons also believe that any sexual relations outside of a legal, heterosexual marriage are a sin. I believe in this doctrine. I had many friends who found this doctrine hard to live by between that wanted to act on opposite-sex attraction with glee! I also found this doctrine REALLY hard. I wanted, really wanted, to act with some glee on some people I was attracted to and who were attracted to me. But I didn't. I d…

> Beliefs by their very nature can be very hard to live by. Should we remove them all? Where do we draw the line?

A fair question, and one we must each ultimately answer for ourselves.

I'm glad your choices worked out for you. I had a number of sexual relationships before I got married. While there are certainly some particular encounters and entanglements I regret -- more the ones where I caused pain than where I felt pain -- there were also several I look back on fondly. Even though we weren't right for each other for the long run, we loved, we shared, we grew, and they are part of who I am now. I love my wife very much, but I'm still glad to have known others.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and a lot of them take wives from whichever foreign land they were in too. Part of the plan to grow the religion.

Do you have a source for both of those claims? As a Mormon, I can say that from my experience, "a lot of them take wives from whichever foreign land they were in too", isn't true. In fact, if someone does it's uncommon enough that it's noteworthy.. but it's not terribly surprising if it does happen. Also, there's women who serve missions too, and have for a while. With "Part of the plan to grow the religion.", I've n…

Hmmm, maybe my sampling size is biased, but I do know two from the same family who did. Also a lot of religions have implicit plans for growth. For example, not eating swine could be tied to pork being less sanitary back in the day.

oh wow, i didn't know 25% of missionaries were women...

Anyway, I don't have anything against Mormon missionaries. Just missionaries in general.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could have equal chance to end up in the top quintile when measuring income, and still do things to help your kids succeed. It would just mean that those things wouldn't depend on the family income. E.g. people whose family is more educated than the average would have better chances to end up in the top quintile by income, regardless of how much money they make.

What's the point of being more educated if you don't make more? Fancy way to waste time?

Intellectual satisfaction.

But you can ask that question about anything, really. What's the point of being stronger, if you can't just go and take other people's stuff? What's the point of being faster, when the first place prize is the same as the last?

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#229
post #143

Utah is more like what the US used to be like. Demographically, it's like early 60s America. Whiter, higher social trust, more Christian, neighborly, higher work ethic, higher rates of marriage, more kids, fewer illegitimate kids, no grievance industry etc. Many of these factors are looked down on by people of a certain political outlook. Seen as regressive. And yet they're happier in Utah. The Mormons try harder to…

On the other hand Utah has one of the higher suicide rates in the country[1], and leads the country in use of antidepressants[2]. Despite being tongue-in-cheek I think the lesson is not so cut and dry. In my personal, anecdotal experience, a lot of the behavior in Utah is forced to keep up the image of a particular life style. 1: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6345a10.htm 2: http://articles.latimes.com/2…

My personal experience is consistent with your second point.

But I'd be careful about making conclusions from the suicide/antidepressant statistics. It's shown to be highly correlated to altitude. I've included a couple links from google search to demonstrate the point.

That being said, the Mormon/LDS church does cause some psychological hardships for certain groups such as LGBT and ex-mormons... at least in my anecdotal experience.

suicide rate map: http://akinokure.blogspot.com/2015/03/higher-suicide-rates-o...

altitude map: http://weather.unisys.com/usgs/

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mormons do not believe that non-believers will "burn in hell for all of eternity". Mormons believe that the afterlife will be far superior to earth life for virtually everyone. Only a tiny segment of humanity, who commit "blasphemy against the Holy Ghost", which Jesus described as the unpardonable sin, will have an existence of endless pain and misery. The belief is that very few people are even capable of getting th…

Someone leaving an ideology opens the possibility that the ideology may not be founded on solid ground in the minds of those who stay. Mormons spend a lot of time proclaiming how much they know it's true to each other. I've always believed this to be some sort of a mental trick like "if we just keep saying it we'll make it so". This isn't to bag on Mormons either. Lots of groups do something similar (many of which ar…

A couple of things...

1. I believe leaving an ideology has more to do with the individual that the ideology, especially when the ideology remains consistent. For example, I was born into a Mormon family, baptized into the LDS church, and even served as an LDS missionary in Tokyo, Japan for two years. Then, I rebelled against the religion, for a variety of self-centered reasons, and demanded to be excommunicated. I remained antagonistic towards the Mormon church for many years. A few years ago, I decided to return to it. During all that time, I was the only thing that changed. The Mormon church remained consistent.

2. In my experience, the LDS church does not take a dim view against its apostates. I was one for many years, and they never approached me with anything but love and kindness, even when they were met with my vitriolic attitude. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the LDS church, and their attitudes towards me during my years as an apostate.

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