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A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

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Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#221

Post by city41 »

brudgers wrote: post #151

When the Rolling Stones did their last tour in 1981 --those were still the days when rock and rollers hoped to die before their geriatric years and The Who would perform their Final Tour just a year later -- the tickets (at least in the US) were by mail and via lottery. Payment was with cashier's check only and only two tickets per order. [1] It would still work today. For fans with money, it would be less convenient…

Some bands still do this. For example the Dave Matthews Band Warehouse club is pretty much the modern version of this. When you join the Warehouse, you get access to a pool of tickets only made available to Warehouse members. The pool contains a wide variety of tickets, and the quality of tickets a member can get is based on how long they've been in the club. Members can only buy a small number of tickets, I believe a max of 2.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#222

Post by vacri »

vkou wrote: post #119
ikeboy wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then do more shows in the same place until demand is met.

But when everyone and their dog can attend, as opposed to just the , the event stops being exclusive. What's the point of going, then? Sure, it's exclusive when tickets are only available at high prices, but surely, you understand that to be the wrong kind of exclusive!

> What's the point of going, then?

Most people go to a show to enjoy the show, not to revel in exclusivity.

Also, it's weird to use "minimise audiences for exclusivity" in a thread started by "maximise audiences for side-channel sales"...

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#223

Post by bogomipz »

The article states:

"Tickets are incorrectly priced, which incentivizes scalping If there's a reliably profitable secondary market for tickets, that means tickets are being priced too inexpensively by the artist."

This is a refrain that is put forth time and time again but people who's business is reselling tickets in the secondary market. The blame is somehow shifted to the artists.

Touring and tour routing are incredibly difficult logistical operations. A touring act has so many variables that they have to consider when they put tickets on sale - availability of venues for dates that coincide with their tour routing, release date of an album their supporting, time of year in which their touring, gauging the current demand, possible competing shows the same night with similar a fan base. The local promoters need lead time to promote the show.

If it was a single show in single place then yes they could exploit dynamic pricing and maximize the price of each individual ticket, much like an airline does. This is not the reality though and as such there may end up being some inefficiencies created inadvertently. This however is not same thing as what is stated here - "the artists are the ones that created this by mis-pricing their tickets." Pricing tickets is a compromise between all of those things I mentioned above. I don't think that necessarily means its someone else's for the taking however.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#224

Post by vacri »

candiodari wrote: post #68
ctrl-j wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's not the situation at hand. It's three people offering me $1000 for something, I give it to you because you're the first person. Then, you turn around and say "hey, I'm selling this for $2000 because I never wanted it in the first place!" The two other people who were waiting can't afford it. Some other guy comes along later who can afford it and pays up. It's not fair, it's one of the nasty grimy sides of…

> Scalpers are 100% middle-men who don't add value. The tickets would sell at base cost. All they do is artificially inflate the value of tickets. Economic theory would say that 1) value, in contrast to price, is personal. Everything has a different value to everyone. For instance, it's a good bet French books have more value to me than to you, because I actually speak that language. 2) inflating value is impossible.…

> 1) they maintain ticket availability far beyond the original sale

By artificially and significantly suppressing it in the first place.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#225

Post by bogomipz »

matwood wrote: post #186
criddell wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everybody that sells tickets has as their goal maximizing revenue. For example, lots of bands work very hard to put on shows that are affordable for their fans. Scalpers taking advantage of the situation is an example of this-is-why-we-can't-have-nice-things . And I agree that access to affordable shows isn't as important as housing or healthcare, but I think you are very much underestimating the value and import…

> For example, lots of bands work very hard to put on shows that are affordable for their fans. Scalpers taking advantage of the situation is an example of this-is-why-we-can't-have-nice-things. Don't believe their hype. If bands wanted to make shows cheaper they only have to do more shows.

>"If bands wanted to make shows cheaper they only have to do more shows."

That's often not feasible. Booking dates depends on a venues schedule. Its often not possible to book a venue for 2 or even 3 nights in a row, especially in primary markets.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#226

Post by vacri »

jstanley wrote: post #23
NLips wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is incorrect. There's a false equivalence between the fans who want to see the gig the most and the fans who are willing to spend the most. The current system means that people with lots of money who aren't super interested will out compete raging fans on low incomes. I'm not suggesting that basing it on first come, first served is ideal, but I think it's probably fairer. If an event organiser/ticketer wants to…

> There's a false equivalence between the fans who want to see the gig the most and the fans who are willing to spend the most. This is how scarce resources are allocated. There is no fairer way to decide who wants something the most than to ask who is willing to give up the most to acquire it. > If an event organiser/ticketer wants to use dynamic pricing, that's up to them. Absolutely. And if a third party wants to…

> There is no fairer way to decide who wants something the most than to ask who is willing to give up the most to acquire it.

A $200 scalped ticket is a few hour's work for us in the IT bubble. A $100 original ticket is a few day's work for someone on the minimum wage. Who is willing to give up the most in this case?

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#227

Post by gpawl »

austenallred wrote: post #22

I spent some of my formidable years scalping and brokering event (mostly broadway) tickets in various forms. The company I co-founded made a few million and I learned an expensive lesson in equity at age 18 (I opted instead for the $14/hr salary). We worked in broadway (meaning the style of show, not just the street), and I met the Wiseguys folks at secondary market trade shows, but I had no idea they were this big,…

> The company I co-founded made a few million and I learned an expensive lesson in equity at age 18 (I opted instead for the $14/hr salary).

Don't feel bad; even if you got equity, your savvier business partner like would have found a way to devalue it. I once got "equity" in the form of 0.0001% of a 6-person non-VC-funded startup.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#228

Post by gpawl »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #195
Arizhel wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, the problem seems like a clear-cut supply-and-demand one. So if artists don't want to look like a bunch of greedy jerks selling tickets for $500+ apiece, and there's only so many seats in the venue, why not increase the number of shows? Maybe the venue is too booked-up and the artists get too tired playing the same venue 5 days in a row and being on the road 5x as long, but it's a thought. The other question I ha…

>> decades ago, concert tickets didn't cost this much I'm willing to bet it's because in the old days artists could release a record and make a living from that without even touring. Now the record, for most artists, is a promotional tool, maybe even a loss leader, for concerts. As for 'why don't they just play more shows' I'd say the reason is quite similar. In the past artists didn't have to tour enough. Now they t…

When was the era of high royalties where bands got rich and didn't have to perform?

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#229

Post by gpawl »

Arizhel wrote: post #160
lmm wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your first two paragraphs seem to contradict each other. Is it the prices you're bothered by or the phones you're bothered by? They're two very different issues. Indeed I suspect if the primary market prices were higher we'd see less use of phones.

It's not contradictory at all. He's complaining about the prices, and then pointing out that the concert experience, even after paying a boatload for tickets, is very sub-par because of the bad behavior by other concertgoers. If the high ticket prices guaranteed him a first-class concert experience (no bright cellphones in the air, etc.) then at least the high prices would have some justification. But as it is, they…

and so the tickets go to people who are willing to pay the price and enjoy the show, and the market continues to function effectively.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#230

Post by Paul-ish »

austenallred wrote: post #22

I spent some of my formidable years scalping and brokering event (mostly broadway) tickets in various forms. The company I co-founded made a few million and I learned an expensive lesson in equity at age 18 (I opted instead for the $14/hr salary). We worked in broadway (meaning the style of show, not just the street), and I met the Wiseguys folks at secondary market trade shows, but I had no idea they were this big,…

>I have never yet seen a system that cannot be beat by scalpers, including paperless ticketing, and I find that most venues and artists want to maximize profits and, more importantly, minimize risk anyway.

Say that a tickets market value is $500. What if they charged $500, then gave a $400 rebate after you walk in the door? They would of course limit the number of rebates per person.

A more concrete implementation that might work well if people are uncomfortable dealing with money in this way: give away goodies valued at the difference at the door. eg everyone get the album, a T-shirt, 2 free drink tickets, etc...

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