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How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

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Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#221

Post by jacquesm »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #202
jacquesm wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have heard of the US refusing entry to people with visas. I know someone this happened to, in fact. That's along the lines of if something happens to one person it is a tragedy but if it happens to a lot of people it is statistics. The numbers are now high enough that it has become a statistic, and one worth noticing. It also draws attention because the list of 7 countries could easily be expanded (on a twitter i…

It's hardly clear that folks would object. Obama is actually the one who came up with the list of 7 countries and authorized this in the Terrorist Travel Prevention act of 2015. It's unclear that this list can be expanded on a whim. https://sethfrantzman.com/2017/01/28/obamas-administration-m... Obama did something similar in 2012 to little protest. http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2012/03... Agai…

The hijacking of the GOP will be studied for a long long time in political circles and universities.

I can only imagine the calculus going on in the conservative party at the moment, it must be something along the lines of 'damned if you do and damned if you don't', when the music stops playing it will get ugly.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#222

Post by paulsutter »

whatever_dude wrote: post #56
hungrygs wrote: post #28

The general direction of the Trump plan regarding H-1b is the way to go. The lottery needs to be replaced with a demand system where the highest salaries get slots. A floor of $100,000/yr should exist and adjust for inflation. Next, generously expand the green card fast track, as this category of employee, as an immigrant, is a free agent to move among companies or to start their own business. To date, as we all know…

The H1B as it is has many problems, but a big salary floor is not the way to go in my opinion. Remember H1B is not just for tech workers. If you want to hire, say, an interpreter of a specific foreign language to work on a community in rural Alabama temporarily, a $100,000 minimum wage would be absurd. They instead need to go after the companies that learned to game the system. I'm not sure what the solution is here.…

It's not a salary floor - $130,000 would be a salary that exempts the application from from "non displacement and recruitment attestation requirements"[1].

For your example the employer could easily show a US worker was not being displaced and could not be recruited. Your example may also be exempt from the H1B numerical cap if the role is with a institution of higher education, a related or affiliated nonprofit entity, a nonprofit research organization, or a governmental research organization.

[1] https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/FactSheet62/whdfs62Q...

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#223

Post by refurb »

NhanH wrote: post #197
refurb wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're argument is that it's impossible for their to be an actual shortage of US workers unless the salary exceed $100K?

I am not the GP, and I do not agree with the statement. However, I have seen it being made numerous times: any shortage of US workers just means the companies are not paying enough (their argument being, try to pay $1mil and you will certainly fill your positions, this is just very minor exaggeration)

I see the thought process, but it's not universally true since you have to account for value the employee brings as well. Consider a company with only 1 employee. That employee can create 1 widget per year which sells for $100,000. The market for widgets is very elastic and at price points above $100,000, the demand is zero. Overhead and cost of goods is $50,000. In that case, the person's salary can't exceed $50,000 or else the company operates at a loss. Even if there is an extreme shortage of skilled workers who can do the job.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#224

Post by pizzetta »

whatever_dude wrote: post #56
hungrygs wrote: post #28

The general direction of the Trump plan regarding H-1b is the way to go. The lottery needs to be replaced with a demand system where the highest salaries get slots. A floor of $100,000/yr should exist and adjust for inflation. Next, generously expand the green card fast track, as this category of employee, as an immigrant, is a free agent to move among companies or to start their own business. To date, as we all know…

The H1B as it is has many problems, but a big salary floor is not the way to go in my opinion. Remember H1B is not just for tech workers. If you want to hire, say, an interpreter of a specific foreign language to work on a community in rural Alabama temporarily, a $100,000 minimum wage would be absurd. They instead need to go after the companies that learned to game the system. I'm not sure what the solution is here.…

With technology today, do we need interpreters in-situ (e-mail, voice, video, etc.)? Also, as we have Americans volunteer abroad for different missions, we too can look for overseas volunteers who could contribute to help in edge-case causes like this.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#225

Post by ElysianEagle »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #147
hungrygs wrote: post #28

The general direction of the Trump plan regarding H-1b is the way to go. The lottery needs to be replaced with a demand system where the highest salaries get slots. A floor of $100,000/yr should exist and adjust for inflation. Next, generously expand the green card fast track, as this category of employee, as an immigrant, is a free agent to move among companies or to start their own business. To date, as we all know…

>To date, as we all know, the H-1b system has primarily been used to arbitrage for lower wage by Indian companies This isn't really true, or it is, but only in high profile yet minority cases. H1B abuse is more about hiring someone at near competitive wages and telling them they're working 60 hour weeks and slowly getting rid of native workers who won't stand for that. So now your IT department is 12 people instead o…

Agreed 100%. People seem to be focused entirely on the salary aspect, but my observations match yours quite well. I've worked for almost 10 years in the industry and with numerous H1-Bs, and I can't recall anyone being underpaid in total comp (I've had discussions on pay with a good number of them). However, they were always the yes-men - working long into the night to meet some ridiculous deadline, remoting in on weekends because the boss needed something done etc etc.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#226

Post by wagecuck »

gizmo wrote: post #48
hungrygs wrote: post #28

The general direction of the Trump plan regarding H-1b is the way to go. The lottery needs to be replaced with a demand system where the highest salaries get slots. A floor of $100,000/yr should exist and adjust for inflation. Next, generously expand the green card fast track, as this category of employee, as an immigrant, is a free agent to move among companies or to start their own business. To date, as we all know…

Unfortunately this salary requirement means immigration will turn even more into a pay-to-play kind of deal. If you have money (or skills/education) borders disappear and if you're broke you're stuck in a place that offers no decent opportunities. America was built on "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free", and this H-1B change is another step away from that.

>If you have money (or skills/education) borders disappear and if you're broke you're stuck in a place that offers no decent opportunities.

That is exactly how it should work. If you don't have anything to offer the country, and no existing ties, why should you be let in?

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#227

Post by wagecuck »

pinaceae wrote: post #166
hungrygs wrote: post #28

The general direction of the Trump plan regarding H-1b is the way to go. The lottery needs to be replaced with a demand system where the highest salaries get slots. A floor of $100,000/yr should exist and adjust for inflation. Next, generously expand the green card fast track, as this category of employee, as an immigrant, is a free agent to move among companies or to start their own business. To date, as we all know…

Riddle me this: We're hiring massively (SF East Bay), have a really hard time finding suitable, qualified candidates (from Java backend to native apps on iOS, Android, Windows). And even our junior devs make more than your new floor in base pay, not even counting RSUs. If I would start filtering out H1B transfers (and other visa types), my hiring pipeline would be empty. Where are the former Pennsylvanian coal miners…

Pay more. You'll find the talent you need.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#228

Post by unprepare »

pm90 wrote: post #187
rdtsc wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would get one from local market for that amount of money. Wait, why? Are you implying foreign workers are not competent and can't be exceptional? Surely it isn't that? Otherwise, sounds like then H1B will finally work as intended, you'd be able higher exceptional people from overseas who might not be available in your area? Maybe there is a distributed systems expert from Argentina or a compiler writer from Ghana…

Really? From your handle, I did think you were among the more nuanced members in this forum. I guess this issue cuts too close to your heart though. > Yes I would! There can be exceptional graduates. I have seen and interviewed some. Google / Facebook / Microsoft already pays that much for good graduate and more Yes, and they are the exception not the rule. American tech sector is not just limited to these companies.…

>especially a great starting salary.

This is exactly why people are railing against H1Bs so hard. How can you even suggest that an h1b be used for an entry level job?

meanwhile record numbers of american college graduates are finding part time work at mcdonalds and starbucks.

Sure wish some of my friends and former classmates could get 60k/yr jobs, instead of 24 hrs/wk @ 8.25 an hour. But no, its because tech companies are literally unable to fill these positions! i swear!

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#229

Post by googletazer »

untog wrote: post #205
testUser69 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If an interpreter is so rare that one can't be found in the US and they need to be hired internationally, then maybe it's worth it to pay $100,000?

Obviously we can't know what the organisation doing the hiring is like in this fictional scenario, but $100k would be a huge, huge amount for non-senior staff in rural Alabama no matter what. The problem with a hard salary floor is that it doesn't account for differences in cost of living at all. It would very quickly become the visa of coastal cities and little else.

Then they can't afford to run. I'd also love to bring say professional 3D modellers and animators from Eastern Europe or Brazil and pay then 20k CAD/year, but thats not how reality works. All of these programs (hb1/etc...) are basically wage arbitrage schemes and have little to do with presence/absence of talent.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#230

Post by justinlaster »

nanistheonlyist wrote: post #199

Yes, Immigration from high IQ euro countries.

So all the tech companies that have been founded from largely middle-east country immigrant families is just going to be ignored?

I know, recognizing contradicting evidence to narratives you hold dearly might be hard, but do try.

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