China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network • Hacker News Board

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#221

Post by est » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 1:44 AM UTC

wang0109 wrote: post #148

nacc wrote: post #78

As someone who grew in China, I just want to point out that besides the engineering, it is a political wonder as well. Before the bullet train network was built, China already has an extensive railway network. The first step is to run the bullet train on traditional railways, with a peak speed of 180km/h. People think it's great. No objections. But to raise the speed further, a new network has to be built, almost sid…

I don't get why the part where Liu Zhijun had to be in jail. Fast trains are intrinsically a great thing for China. People don't just "realize" it's great because of Liu or anybody else. Your "then" logic is misleading. Liu got into jail because embezzlement and favors from project contractors, at least that was part of the story, aside political factions.

Because Liu is basically a railway enthusiast but in power. In order to push projects ASAP he bribed everyone thoroughly.

Each time a new HSR line is open he is the first passenger, and once on Chinese New Year eve he traveled to distant small rail stations and fire drunk station masters on premise.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#222

Post by ghaff » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 1:46 AM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #214

_delirium wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "Texas triangle" is one example of some good city pairs, which are a lot more practically situated than the pie-in-the-sky NYC-LA route people always bring up as a reason HSR won't work in the U.S. due to distances (and this is not the only such set of routes, just a particularly high-volume set). Houston-Dallas is a very high-volume city pair forming one leg of the triangle, of length around 250 miles. People do…

That's a great point. The train from Albany to NYC is at or near capacity daily, although it's only 150 miles. Similar use case in many ways... It's enough of a pain to drive that people want to avoid it, and it's better than a car to go to Manhattan. My uncle used to fly LGA to BOS a couple of times a week... I betcha that train trip is shorter now given the security and other nonsense associated with flying.

Depends where you are coming from and going to. I do prefer to take the train driving from the western Boston suburbs to Manhattan (so RTE to NYP) but it's not actually faster than driving directly. Probably is faster than flying though.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#223

Post by free652 » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 1:47 AM UTC

Larrikin wrote: post #201

free652 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC is one of the best system. It pretty much covers most of the city 24/7. I have yet to see a system that has similar coverage and frequency.

24/7 is in fact a negative as the state of the DC Metro and NYC system show especially in comparison to Tokyo's multiple system. There's not enough time to do proper repairs and improvements. What I don't understand is why more cities don't operate like Philly and operate 24 hour bus service in place of the trains at night. With a system like that the night workers can still get to work as early as others and the bar…

NYC has buses covering pretty much the same routes as subway, it just takes much longer. Personally I use express buses for commute and these are amazing, though twice as expensive.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#224

Post by ghaff » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 1:48 AM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #213

ghaff wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I understand. Even if rail were cheaper to get from, say, Boston to Charlotte, you'd then almost certainly have to rent a car for that vacation so it's hard to see a train being an economical option for most families. And Amtrak does offer an auto train though from Virginia to Florida. I like the train but I don't assume it's a particularly economic option.

There's this newfangled thing called Uner now. ;) Any trip where people fly is a rail candidate. The hassle and bullshit associated with flying is high and getting higher.

Taxis/Uber don't really work in very spread out areas relative to having a car.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#225

Post by niftich » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 1:54 AM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #162

ajmurmann wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your point is generally valid for the US. However, Chicago-NYC might be a bad example, since it actuality might be viable. The Shinkansen goes ~200mp/h and thus would be able to go back and forth in 4-5hrs. Given that trains are less weather dependent, can drop you off on there middle of the city rather than the outskirts and don't come with the same security theater you probably come out with a comparable ti…

NYC to Chicago goes through a (smaller) continental divide though (the Appalachians) [ADDED in what's also a pretty built-up area of the country]. So HSR is problematic on that route. It's about a 20 hour trip today so cutting that by 2/3rds would be a significant achievement but probably still wouldn't be enough to make it interesting. The somewhat controversial LA to San Francisco route through the Central Valley m…

The Allegheny Front, where the continental divide runs between Altoona, PA and Frostburg, MD, wouldn't be a particular challenge for HSR, because they're good at hillclimbing, and the mass of the trainset is nothing like loaded coal trains or intermodal double-stack trains which currently frequent this area.

LGV Sud-Est has 3.5% grades, for example; the Pennsylvania Railroad (now Norfolk Southern) Gallitzin-Horseshoe Curve-Altoona stretch is 1.85%, B&O (CSX) Sand Patch Grade further south is 2%.

Rather, overcoming the general ruggedness of the terrain is the greatest expense. Slower railroads can meander along rivers, but a HSR needs large sweeping curves (with large radii), requiring expensive fills or cuts or viaducts. Some tunnels would be needed to cross some of the linear ridges, just like the Pennsylvania Turnpike (and the predecessor railroad that used the same right-of-way) did. In fact, it's likely that an alignment would closely parallel the turnpike, as the landscape gets significantly more rugged south of Maryland or north of I-80.

A gentler route following the Empire Corridor (roughly, NYC->Albany->Buffalo) may be cheaper to construct, but would be considered a "detour" by a casual observer -- and the expense of the NYC->Albany portion may not make it worthwhile.

Sadly, it's not very likely that such a Mid-Atlantic-to-Chicago passenger-only railway could be economical to construct and operate. US infrastructure costs routinely run much higher than the international average for comparable projects, and even the as-the-crow-flies distance (1100+ km, 700+ miles) between NYC-Chicago puts it too far out of HSR's ideal range, even in countries where people actually ride trains.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#226

Post by dfguo » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:04 AM UTC

The article merely touches the economic benefits. There is also another elephant in the room which wasn't mentioned - fast way to transport army. All the bullet-train rail are capable of transporting tanks. This will allow overnight transfer of army to any city in China.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#227

Post by nacc » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:06 AM UTC

wang0109 wrote: post #148

nacc wrote: post #78

As someone who grew in China, I just want to point out that besides the engineering, it is a political wonder as well. Before the bullet train network was built, China already has an extensive railway network. The first step is to run the bullet train on traditional railways, with a peak speed of 180km/h. People think it's great. No objections. But to raise the speed further, a new network has to be built, almost sid…

I don't get why the part where Liu Zhijun had to be in jail. Fast trains are intrinsically a great thing for China. People don't just "realize" it's great because of Liu or anybody else. Your "then" logic is misleading. Liu got into jail because embezzlement and favors from project contractors, at least that was part of the story, aside political factions.

Maybe I should explain better. I think with a project receiving so much opposition both from the government and citizens, I imagine Liu would have to use extraordinary methods to push it forward, which will hurt the power players hard (especially those who created the opposing voice).

The embezzlement and favours are usually just an excuse. Most people with power (at least in China) get away with it even if everyone knows about it. It only become important when someone who don't like you gets more power.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#228

Post by imbeau » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 2:15 AM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #198

Spooky23 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are tons of good city pairs. People are paying to be carted like baggage by Spirit. We subsidize highways and air travel at the expense of other ground options. It shouldn't be 70% cheaper for me to drive my family to Florida or the Carolinas for vacation from NY vs air or rail. But it is. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, do that I95 trip every year. There are dozens of corridors like that.

I'm not sure I understand. Even if rail were cheaper to get from, say, Boston to Charlotte, you'd then almost certainly have to rent a car for that vacation so it's hard to see a train being an economical option for most families. And Amtrak does offer an auto train though from Virginia to Florida. I like the train but I don't assume it's a particularly economic option.

Amtrak could make a killing with a service that sent you via high speed rail and sent your car via regular rail either before or after you departed.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#229

Post by vkou » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 5:30 AM UTC

jdpedrie wrote: post #119

vkou wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States would rather let an oil company build a pipeline on your land, then a rail company build a high speed train track on it. Oil is prioritized over rail because it immediately creates jobs, tax dollars, and the government doesn't have to pay up front for it. If you're a politician, which one would you want to support?

> oil company build a pipeline This happens. > rail company build a high speed train track This doesn't. There are actually companies that want to build oil pipelines. How many privately funded companies are there that want to (and have the means to) build a high-speed rail line?

How many privately funded companies would even consider doing so in the current regulatory climate? There's a bit of survivourship bias at play, here!

Likewise, if the oil were extracted by the state, rather then a private firm, it would also not have any problems with piping it over private property.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#230

Post by taobility » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 5:57 AM UTC

adventured wrote: post #141

xbeta wrote: post #135

(Being a Chinese grew up in Canada, and now working/living in the Bay) In my opinion, most people in the valley or in North America still refuse to give up their lifestyle. They look for something like self-driving cars, all electric-powered "personal" vehicle to invest. And those still drive on the same road/interstates/highway infrastructure and don't give you the benefits compare with high-speed rails. They don't…

The US is in fact ascendant, not in decline. You're using the rail example to imply downfall, and yet the US economy has embarrassed the Japanese economy the last 25 years. In the mid 1980s, the US and Japan nearly had the same GDP per capita; very soon the US will have twice the GDP per capita of Japan. You're implying rail is so beneficial to economic growth, and let's say I agree with that: and yet the US has been…

Talking about GDP, I am not an expert, but just compared two examples: 1. ST3 project in Seattle metro area. http://soundtransit3.org/ This project will be finish in 25 years, with $53.8 billions in estimation, to construct 62 new miles light rail majorly. 2. The high speed rail project connecting Beijing and Shanghai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing%E2%80%93Shanghai_High-... And this project completed in 3.5 years (from April 2008 to Nov 2010) by constructed 819 miles high speed railroad between Beijing and Shanghai (averaging 186 MPH), and the total investment is $34.7 billion.

In summary, 819 miles HSR vs 62 miles LR, $34.7B vs. $53.8B, and 3.5 Years vs. 25 Years So compared with other countries, how much the inflation US GDP has?