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Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#221

Post by BFatts »

kazinator wrote: post #189

> Please provide one example of using the term "MILF" in a professionally appropriate way. "Team, some numbers are in. It seems our hot-milfs.xxx domain is bringing in more ad revenue than the rest combined."

That's not an example since you're talking about a website and it has a compound name. Additionally it's the porn industry, obviously, so MILF might be the okay word in that field. BUT in the software field where most people don't use the term MILF except in very private ways, MILF is derogatory. Whereas "Mother I'd Like to Fuck" isn't exactly a phrase that slips out in general corporate conversation.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#222

Post by snowwrestler »

ChemicalWarfare wrote: post #167
dragonwriter wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From every sexual.harassment training I've had given by lawyers working in the field, the idea that a change of venue/forum necessarily removes something like this from work-related is absolutely not the case.

I think there's a fine line there. From what I understand from whatever corporate training I went through in the past - if there's a job-related activity like team dinner and then some ppl go to the bar for a few drinks - this is still 'job related'. Same goes for business-related travel and so on. In this particular case though - a weekend conversation after an explicit request to take it private - not sure if this…

Coworkers speak privately to one another all the time about all sorts of things. Even in private conversations, they can reasonably expect professional and appropriate behavior from their colleagues.

When does someone become "more" than a coworker? There's no clear line there, but it's definitely not during the very first private conversation.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#223

Post by tptacek »

logfromblammo wrote: post #144
patio11 wrote: post #3

Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER . I think the consensus in the grown-up business world is "fire immediately for cause." I would bet substantial money that when you lawyer lawyer lawyer they will advise you to do that and document the heck out of it. The calculus is really, really simple: if you don't, then you will with probability approaching one get this incident or a similar incident cited during a threa…

That is not the consensus. The consensus in the grown-up business world is to protect the company . Protect the company from the sexual harassment suit, and protect the company from the wrongful termination suit. As such, no one will ever fire for cause on the basis of one incident report on a single interaction that occurred away from the workplace. But you can be certain that everyone in the building gets additiona…

What "wrongful termination" suit are you referring to? Please be as specific as you can.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#224

Post by bskap »

ownagefool wrote: post #194
patio11 wrote: post #3

Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER . I think the consensus in the grown-up business world is "fire immediately for cause." I would bet substantial money that when you lawyer lawyer lawyer they will advise you to do that and document the heck out of it. The calculus is really, really simple: if you don't, then you will with probability approaching one get this incident or a similar incident cited during a threa…

Really? If he's _just_ hired him, I presume any probationary period would be ongoing and you can let the guy go consequence free? Thus, the most obvious least path of resistance is just to let him go and not really give him cause. I'm not from the US, thus I'm genuinely asking the question. With that said, aren't we potentially overreacting here? Quite a lot of romances spark in the office. The guys tried it on, he's…

In the US, almost all employment is at-will. There's no probationary period and any one can be let go at any time without notice for any reason (or no reason) except for a certain list of protected things (gender, race, marital status, and the like).

Also, from the description, it seems like the conversation was way more than just "would you like to get a drink" and the guy already didn't back down.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#225

Post by kazinator »

BFatts wrote: post #221
kazinator wrote: post #189

> Please provide one example of using the term "MILF" in a professionally appropriate way. "Team, some numbers are in. It seems our hot-milfs.xxx domain is bringing in more ad revenue than the rest combined."

That's not an example since you're talking about a website and it has a compound name. Additionally it's the porn industry, obviously, so MILF might be the okay word in that field. BUT in the software field where most people don't use the term MILF except in very private ways, MILF is derogatory. Whereas "Mother I'd Like to Fuck" isn't exactly a phrase that slips out in general corporate conversation.

Aw man, did you have to reply? :) I was about to delete that. It's a stupid comment, attracting undeserved upvotes.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#226

Post by Mz »

matwood wrote: post #215
Mz wrote: post #174

So, I am female. When working at a Fortune 500 company, I once emailed a colleague and copied our two bosses. I advised him to never speak that way to me again. It went to HR. I got interviewed. I assume he got interviewed. He was not fired. He never spoke that way to me again. I eventually reestablished trust with this man and we got on well. I suspect he got sensitivity training. I was not told what went down. It w…

I applaud you for this comment and how you handled your situation. Hopefully the man in your story also apologized to you. People are people and in a moment of idiocy can make stupid comments. Every single person has said something stupid at some point. It is how we handle things afterwards that matter.

No, he did not apologize. Nor did I expect him too. I expected him to treat me with respect, not kiss my ass, curry favor or fear me. I spent some time making sure he understood that I was not a threat to him, not out to get him and that I was also going to do all in my power to respect him. This is how I won his trust.

He was a very good looking man in a female majority department. Eventually, he seemed to take a few cues from me and quit letting women there verbally feel him up.

I am entirely satisfied with how it all went down.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#227

Post by snowwrestler »

rsp1984 wrote: post #201

I am not a lawyer, but: Apart from the "Milf" comment I don't see much in your description of events that would qualify as sexual harassment (at least not from my European view of things). Certainly unprofessional but not quite sexually harassing. As far as I understand, the transgressions were "only" verbal and there was no other inappropriate behaviour. Here's what I would do: Collect all the facts and evidence abo…

> Apart from the "Milf" comment I don't see much in your description of events that would qualify as sexual harassment

Well yes, it might be hard to see the sexual harassment once you've decided to set aside the sexually harassing part.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#228

Post by tptacek »

harryh wrote: post #185
jonnathanson wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't upvote this enough. Patrick's advice is very sound. (Except, perhaps, for that last bit about what to say in an email to employees -- before sending any such email, please refer to Patrick's earlier, superseding advice to "Lawyer Lawyer Lawyer." Let your lawyer basically dictate what your email will say.) There are ways of handling this that have been worked out through decades of practice and litigation. Thi…

Just to add on a bit more you are probably right about "b) terminate the offending employee for cause" but before you do that you almost certainly have to give the employee a chance to respond to the accusations. If you just fire him before doing that you are likely opening yourself up to a lawsuit for wrongful termination. Yet again, this is something that a lawyer will help you handle correctly.

This is the second comment on the thread I've seen invoking "wrongful termination".

By all means, get your lawyer to confirm this fact for you, but: assuming you had the bare minimum competent legal assistance in setting up your company and its hiring documents, there is practically no such thing as wrongful termination in the US. In particular: if it is lawful for you to fire someone at all, it is probably no less lawful to fire them over a good-faith mistake.

Obviously, there are any number of things you can blunder into with your employment documents that can create a colorable claim for wrongful termination. But the reason everyone uses the same boilerplate legalese employment documents is precisely to avoid these kinds of claims, and to firmly establish at-will employment with no implied contracts of job security.

If you think you have an argument that firing this bizdev guy is legally tenuous, I have bad news for you: in your company, it is also legally tenuous to fire a developer who has only ever managed to push code that rm'd your prod environment.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#229

Post by Loughla »

anjc wrote: post #209
Loughla wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It absolutely is an aggressive, invasive term. It literally means he wants to fuck her. "Mom I Want to Fuck". That's the thing it means. And his 'i have a secret' junior high bullshit sort of cements that as his view. Your perception of my comfort level means nothing. Maybe you shouldn't be in a situation where you have to worry about my comfort level? >I can only guess that this occurred in the US; you all make it s…

Did you not read my post? It does not literally mean "I want to fuck you". You'd have to be pretty dense to think it is a literal come on or proposal. It's a mainstream pop culture term. Turn on any random X-Factor type show for 3 minutes and you'll hear Sharon Osbourne or someone use it. > So sexual harassment is only a US thing? If this occurred as OP described, I don't see how it can be construed as sexual harassm…

k. Let's do that, then.

https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm

"It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature."

or

https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/publications/fs-sex.cfm

"Sexual harassment can occur in a variety of circumstances, including but not limited to the following: [...] The harasser's conduct must be unwelcome."

Unwelcome sexual advances. That's your black and white definition. Being called a MILF can be an unwelcome sexual advance.

Being called a milf ----LITERALLY---- means you are a mother I would like to fuck. Regardless of how you perceive pop-culture to use the term.

It ----LITERALLY---- is an acronym for mother I want to fuck. There is not another interpretation. You're wrong. You're just wrong.

As for:

>If this occurred as OP described, I don't see how it can be construed as sexual harassment. He ended contact upon her making it clear that it was unwanted, so by the very definition of "harassment" he didn't harass her.

OP said nothing about how the male employee ending contact. He said that the female employee "handled it well and didn't let it get out of hand." That is something entirely different. That means that, had the female employee not ended the contact herself, this could have gone on.

EITHER WAY. You're just wrong. This could be perceived as harassment by a female employee.

Now, whether or not the guy should be fired really depends on what OP learns when s/he interviews both parties, after s/he talks to a lawyer. Honestly, the EEOC or lawyers or courts would try to determine if the actions were pervasive (I don't think they were) and created a hostile work environment (sooooo grey, maybe this did, maybe it didn't).

I'm telling you that you're just wrong. That's not phrased as a question - it is a declarative statement.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#230

Post by collyw »

nikki-9696 wrote: post #122
boosting7669 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the OP hasn't shared all information but if asking someone out and/or complimenting someone's appearance (albeit crudely) is now the equivalent of sexual harassment then be prepared for a rapid decline in population since no one will want to be the first one to make a move.

"since no one will want to be the first one to make a move." It's a work environment, not a bar. No one should normally need to make a "first move" in this context. Sure, work romances do sometimes happen, but I don't think our population is in any danger if they do not.

"work romances do sometimes happen"

A quick google suggests that 38% of people have dated a co-worker.

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