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Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

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Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#211

Post by joelrunyon »

fixermark wrote: post #77
joelrunyon wrote: post #21

> The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet Does anyone honestly believe this? Even Ellen in the op-ed says > As the trolls on Reddit grew louder and more harassing in recent weeks, another group of users became more vocal. First a few sent positive messages. Then a few more. Soon, I was receiving hundreds of messages a day, and at one point thousands. These messages were thoughtful, well-written and heartfe…

The major issue is the notion that "jerks sometimes" is evolving into "jerks all the time." Not yet sure how much of this notion stems from the focus on the problem and how much is actual increase, but it's a problem nonetheless. Why do we tolerate as much trolling as we do? Why do we continue to see trolls as just trolls when we have evidence of people being bullied to suicide via the signal-magnification effect of…

> The major issue is the notion that "jerks sometimes" is evolving into "jerks all the time."

I would doubt that. I think it's an outgrowth of more information created (so the trolls, if you're looking for them, will have more trolling as well).

It's just like how the news is claiming things are always getting worse. They're not. Things are better than ever, we're just getting much better at hearing about the outlier cases of when bad things do happen.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#212

Post by VikingCoder »

paulhauggis wrote: post #132
VikingCoder wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pao had thousands of accounts calling her a ching-chong cunt. There's potentially a big difference. I'm not defending the slur - it's abhorrent. But if the magnitude matters to you, let's try to be accurate when we describe what we're counting.

Really? So you are going to count the number of "accounts" now? She was bullied and forced to resign. This is the standard operating procedure of many here on HN and on the Internet (Mozilla CEO anyone?): Someone just can't have a differing opinion. They need to be bullied, tormented, silenced, fired, and marginalized until they admit that their opinion is wrong. It was all based on mis-information (many still don't…

"I'm not defending the slur - it's abhorrent."

Did you read those words I wrote? Yes or no? Feel free to yell at someone, but it shouldn't be me.

I want accurate reporting, don't demonize me for that, okay. Units matter. If OP has proof that it was "thousands of people calling her a ching-chong cunt," then I'd like to see it. If instead, OP has proof that 2,400 accounts upvoted an image labeling her "ching chong ding dong," then report that.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#213

Post by VikingCoder »

danielweber wrote: post #151
paulhauggis wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? So you are going to count the number of "accounts" now? She was bullied and forced to resign. This is the standard operating procedure of many here on HN and on the Internet (Mozilla CEO anyone?): Someone just can't have a differing opinion. They need to be bullied, tormented, silenced, fired, and marginalized until they admit that their opinion is wrong. It was all based on mis-information (many still don't…

This modern trend of trying to fire people whose speech we don't like is nuts. I suspect, possibly incorrectly, that it's being done heavily by people who have never tried to support a family and don't realize the extreme damage their "hobby" has on the world.

I don't think it's modern - every elected politician has faced this.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#214

Post by yellowapple »

wxs wrote: post #2

I just posted this in the earlier submission[1], but I'll put it here too: I really worry that if we don't find a way to fix the abuse problem, pseudonymity online will be looked back on by future generations as our time's Klan hood. Abuse stories like these make me embarrassed to support any form of privacy online. Platforms need to take a stand and find a way reduce hate and abuse, or public opinion (and my own) wi…

Except that an enforcement of a real-name policy will make it even easier to abuse online users, since now a harasser (or "troll", if you will) has that much more information to go on when doxxing or otherwise imposing offline consequences for online activities.

In other words, pseudonymity is, if anything, the one safeguard we have left against the sort of cyberbullying that happens with disturbing regularity. Advocating for its removal for the sake of "online safety" is the textbook definition of "backfire" (and, I'd imagine, would count as tragic irony).

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#215

Post by yellowapple »

VikingCoder wrote: post #213
danielweber wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This modern trend of trying to fire people whose speech we don't like is nuts. I suspect, possibly incorrectly, that it's being done heavily by people who have never tried to support a family and don't realize the extreme damage their "hobby" has on the world.

I don't think it's modern - every elected politician has faced this.

Right, but those are elected officials. Appeasing the public is their job. That's not the case for, say, some graphic designer somewhere, and said graphic designer being fired over some remark on the Internet is absurd.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#216

Post by partiallypro »

fixermark wrote: post #90
partiallypro wrote: post #74

I'm going to disagree. I've been in IRC, Forums, Newsgroups, lurked 4Chan, Reddit, and Slashdot for years. It has actually been evolving to a point, especially among the younger crowd to get bent out of shape about essentially nothing. Maybe that is because more of our lives are online than before, but if you were to go through Twitter and Tumblr and just browse around it is a huge mess of people constantly being off…

Does "Just don't feed the trolls" continue to work in a world where trolls know that SWATting someone is as easy as picking up a phone, and doxxing someone can have significant long-term consequences?

SWATing is bad, but rare, and imo it speak more volumes for the really low threshold police have for using a SWAT team for things. That can be addressed in other ways. SWAT teams raid the wrong houses all the time. If someone SWATs someone they should be thrown in jail, imo, but it also, again speak volumes to the mentality of modern police departments who will SWAT someone based on nothing but a phone call.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#217

Post by keedot »

lingben wrote: post #210
keedot wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, which is why we have courts to determine the validity of the claims.

Sure, but some things are self evident and it makes no sense to waste public funds on them. If you hurt my feelings, that's neither a criminal nor civil offense. "Sticks and stones..." silly me, I thought we all learned this in elementary school

And yet teenagers still commit suicide because of online harassment. So words do hurt, and can even kill.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#218

Post by VikingCoder »

yellowapple wrote: post #215
VikingCoder wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's modern - every elected politician has faced this.

Right, but those are elected officials. Appeasing the public is their job. That's not the case for, say, some graphic designer somewhere, and said graphic designer being fired over some remark on the Internet is absurd.

Well, in this case, we're not talking about some graphic designer... We're talking about the Chief Executive Officer of a social media corporation.

I don't LIKE that people get that kind of scrutiny... But I think it should be legal, and we have to live with the unfortunate consequences.

As to the graphic designer... I don't have a good answer for that. Keep your unpopular opinions at arm's length from your professional life...? :(

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#219

Post by slang800 »

> The trolls are winning the battle for the Internet

The trolls aren't "winning" because "the trolls" aren't an organization. They don't have an ideology that they're pushing, or some end-goal that they're hoping to achieve. They're a byproduct of free speech that we all have to deal with.

But most importantly, they're not even able to be categorized uniformly. What is trolling to one person, may be comedy, satire, or even just _disagreement_ to another.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#220

Post by msandford »

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #200
msandford wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should we repeal the first amendment because people sometimes used racial or ethnic slurs? Or they deny the moon landing? Or say things that your preferred political party happens to disagree with? Or maybe only things that YOU disagree with?

Better example would be anti-vaxxers. You can point to actual cases of dead children and say this is the penalty of free speech. Speaking of which, why is anti-vaxxer rhetoric protected even though it contributes to the harm of children. I can think of illegal speech that was banned because of it being harmful to children (and which is likely less lethal than anti-vaxxer rhetoric).

> I can think of illegal speech that was banned because of it being harmful to children (and which is likely less lethal than anti-vaxxer rhetoric).

That's very interesting. Could you elaborate please? I'd really like to know more.

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