How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference? • Hacker News Board

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#211

Post by ansible » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 4:21 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #107

bryanlarsen wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A large part of the problem is the failure to distinguish between the aggregate and the individual. For the sake of argument let's say that the population of individuals who would make good engineers is 60% male and 40% female. From an aggregate level that's a huge difference. Once you gather enough of people that statistical inferences can be made, the difference becomes obvious. In a classroom, for instance. But at…

That really is the crux of the matter. Everyone should be given an equal chance with no prejudice, and then if population differences still emerge, that's OK. Unfortunately there isn't much room for this middle ground. People who want to acknowledge sex difference want to use sex as a filter, e.g. "no women in combat roles." People who want to give everybody a chance also want to even things out, e.g. "Allow women in…

That really is the crux of the matter. Everyone should be given an equal chance with no prejudice, and then if population differences still emerge, that's OK.

Yup. One of the things that annoys me most about prejudice and such is that it is inefficient. For a well-run and rich (economically, socially) civilization, we ideally want everyone to excel to the best of their best ability. To find the best use for everyone's talents. We want everyone to find their own niche, irrespective of their gender, race, orientation, etc.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#212

Post by douche » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 4:21 PM UTC

Retra wrote: post #150

mikeash wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It appears you're right. However, I find it puzzling that it's mentioned here, since the gulf between "there are some genetic differences between the sexes" and "let's attempt to improve the human gene pool by murdering any group we find displeasing" is so great that they barely have any relationship at all.

It's not about murdering people. The problem is, if you support policies that disadvantage people based on their genetics, you can gradually dehumanize those people. The (real) disadvantages of that outweigh the (supposed) advantages.

But if you are disadvantaging people that have objectively inferior genetics? Do you actually lose anything? Otherwise, are those people taking advantage of medical advances that prevent their deficiencies from being fatal?

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#213

Post by schwap » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 4:24 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #179

LordKano wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also the eugenicist argument that the undesirables shouldn't be permitted to procreate. For example, Margaret Sanger didn't want to round up people and exterminate them but she did want to keep them from reproducing.

Given that procreation requires one man and one woman to participate, it's going to be really hard to practice eugenics based on genetic differences between the sexes.

Did you miss China during the "one-child" policy era[1]?

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy#Effect_on_inf...

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#214

Post by hoopd » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 4:24 PM UTC

hiou wrote: post #112

mikeash wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That really is the crux of the matter. Everyone should be given an equal chance with no prejudice, and then if population differences still emerge, that's OK. Unfortunately there isn't much room for this middle ground. People who want to acknowledge sex difference want to use sex as a filter, e.g. "no women in combat roles." People who want to give everybody a chance also want to even things out, e.g. "Allow women in…

I hesitate to bring up extreme cases, but the relationship between social darwinism and the rise of the nazi party make many people, including myself, very hesitant to speak about differences in sex etc. Not because we deny their existence, but because we've seen how far large groups of uninformed electorate can be persuaded into supporting some scary stuff because of it. It's just a very tricky subject when it comes…

4th comment from the top of the thread and we've already reached Godwin's Law.

Have you ever wondered how the electorate becomes uninformed? Certain information is declared off-limits because of what it might make people think or do.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#215

Post by ScootyPuff3000 » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 4:26 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #107

bryanlarsen wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A large part of the problem is the failure to distinguish between the aggregate and the individual. For the sake of argument let's say that the population of individuals who would make good engineers is 60% male and 40% female. From an aggregate level that's a huge difference. Once you gather enough of people that statistical inferences can be made, the difference becomes obvious. In a classroom, for instance. But at…

That really is the crux of the matter. Everyone should be given an equal chance with no prejudice, and then if population differences still emerge, that's OK. Unfortunately there isn't much room for this middle ground. People who want to acknowledge sex difference want to use sex as a filter, e.g. "no women in combat roles." People who want to give everybody a chance also want to even things out, e.g. "Allow women in…

Yes, but more and more, courts and laws try to enforce "equal outcomes" and not "equal opportunity."

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#216

Post by zo1 » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 4:26 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #177

Retra wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about murdering people. The problem is, if you support policies that disadvantage people based on their genetics, you can gradually dehumanize those people. The (real) disadvantages of that outweigh the (supposed) advantages.

OK, but the gulf between that and "there is some genetic differences between the sexes" is still so large that you'd need a powerful telescope to see from one to the other.

As much as I disagree with your overall viewpoints, I'll agree on this one you have here. For a lot of individuals, the gap that you mention is huge such as to not have an immediate, explicit effect, and for one particular reason:

Something as simple as validating and completely "accepting" the notion that "there is[sic] some genetic differences between the sexes" requires individuals to throw out entire swathes of subsequent ideas/notions/etc, if we were to be logical about things. I.e. You now have "Men and women are equal but ..." or "Men and women are equal except when...", instead of the pure and logically consistent "Men and women are equal".

If you ask me, the entire thing (sex-differences topic) is starting to smell full of tiny errors and corner-cases. Perhaps we're on the verge of a paradigm shift happening once people clarify their ideas, without exceptions and acceptable-errors:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm_shift

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#217

Post by delecti » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 4:28 PM UTC

top1nice1gtsrtd wrote: post #172

The six primary programmers of ENIAC were all women: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENIAC . Can we conclude, then, taking that as our sample, that programming is naturally "women's work"? If the preponderance of women in programming at that time was just a fluke then it's not unimaginable that the preponderance of men in programming at this time is also a fluke.

It was initially thought that programming was like sewing, and the "real" work was in the hardware.

Then it was realized that programming was very real and significant work, and the men in charge took over those responsibilities.

I think all we can conclude is that there's no reason women can't be just as successful at a career in programming as men, aside from social pressures. A statement which probably applies in both directions to nearly all fields.

(Not that you were necessarily arguing otherwise, but for the benefit of those less familiar with that history.)

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#218

Post by cousin_it » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 4:29 PM UTC

danharaj wrote: post #160

I'd much rather prefer to lurk Hacker News but these comment chains have just been so exasperating. I'd like to know how many people actually believe that science is engaged in a widespread effort to dissimulate the truth of sex differences? Everyone knows that there is a sexual dimorphism in humans. It's not that pronounced compared to other species. Our dimorphism is not anomalous amongst great apes, nor is it indi…

Is this a fair summary of your argument?

1) Women are suffering under the current power structure.

2) Interpersonal variation is being used as an argument to support the current power structure.

3) Therefore, as a good person I must deny interpersonal variation.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#219

Post by stared » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 4:32 PM UTC

CWuestefeld wrote: post #171

tfinniga wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there is a reason why I chose those examples. I'm not arguing for diversity at all costs, which seems like what you're arguing against. I'd say in general having researchers and university teachers that are intelligent is good. Diversity is also good. There should be a balance - I think that diverse researchers and teachers can solve problems that a homogenous group of researchers would never solve. For example…

Diversity is also good. There should be a balance There's a huge assumption built into this, about what dimensions of diversity are virtuous. Our society places great value on showing diversity on scales of gender and race, and to a lesser extent also on religion and more recently, gender identity. Why are these demographics the ones for which we should be endeavoring to ensure diversity? Why shouldn't we strive to f…

In Soviet Union class background played a role (worker background was a plus).

Moreover, many countries had Jewish quota (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_quota) - very often at the percent of the Jews in their population.

But what is striking, we now consider such quotas as blatant discrimination, rather than good affirmative actions for the (really or allegedly) underprivileged groups.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#220

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 4:33 PM UTC

zxcvvcxz wrote: post #207

> However, if it is simply a fact that males are generally more variable than are females on many traits, why is this true? > Since a male can have more offspring than a female--but also has a greater chance of being childless... natural selection favors a slightly more conservative and reliable baby-building process for females and a slightly more ambitious and error-prone process for males. This is on the money. Wo…

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