When Nerds Collide (2014) • Hacker News Board

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#211

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 5:22 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #160

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. Sure, there's also various subcultures in the software development industry, but there isn't one big subculture there. There's the abrasive brogrammers, there's the sensitive political correctness advocates, there's the quiet nerd that just wants to be left alone, there's the hiring manager looking for new employees,…

> I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. And here I think is the crux of the problem; it's what the article was about. Tech became mainstream, and attracted people who look at it as a job. From the point of view of us native nerds, we became colonized and are being pushed back from the thing we built as our little place in the universe where we would feel…

[deleted]

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#212

Post by ll123 » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 5:23 PM UTC

tedks wrote: post #191

hyperion2010 wrote: post #26

This article is so spot on and covers many of the things that have bothered me for years about people who try to join nerd communities and then immediately start complaining about "inappropriate behavior" (eg the dongle thing). Yes, there are cases where there is real inappropriate behavior surrounding positions of power in corporate or workplace settings, but in the community at large and in the communal and public…

It's definitely spot-on. I think it has a great example of anti-feminist/male-privileged mindset: > Desire for civility and freedom from objectification is "censorship" > Wanting to not support misogynists/rape apologists/rape denialists/sexual predators is worse than the soviets > My fear of social ostracism is as or more valid than your fear of being raped > My chosen "identities" are as important as the assigned s…

Typical privileged male trying to talk over a woman in tech's lived experience. Instead of screaming at her that she's wrong about everything, how about listening for once?

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#213

Post by Lawtonfogle » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 5:26 PM UTC

modfodder wrote: post #189

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Well, I would say that first, the threat feminists are often fighting against is the threat of bodily harm and behavior that leads to bodily harm Good ol manspreading, such a threat, very scary. As to the rape statistics, those numbers are highly inflated and less inflated numbers show that men are almost as likely (if not equally) to face sexual violence (but far less likely to report it and far more likely to have…

>As to the rape statistics, those numbers are highly inflated and less inflated numbers show that men are almost as likely (if not equally) to face sexual violence (but far less likely to report it and far more likely to have it dismissed) and that men are more likely to face physical violence. Mind showing evidence that these numbers are highly inflated? >And now they being invaded by profit-chasers and blamed for t…

>Mind showing evidence that these numbers are highly inflated?

For starters, look at recent CDC studies in the last 5 years. Pay extra attention to how most cases of a woman forcing a man to have sex are not classified as rape (which means the summaries about rape are way off). There are other resources that I don't currently have on hand about how they are over inflated, but one recent story was about how over inflated they are on college campuses. Another, especially for attempted rape, is to look into the use of date rape drugs and how rare they actually are used compared to how often women think they have been used.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#214

Post by spiritplumber » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 5:27 PM UTC

angersock wrote: post #190

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. Sure, there's also various subcultures in the software development industry, but there isn't one big subculture there. There's the abrasive brogrammers, there's the sensitive political correctness advocates, there's the quiet nerd that just wants to be left alone, there's the hiring manager looking for new employees,…

Thirding what my sibling commenters are saying, just for the additional data point. The article was about hackers , the set of outcasts that self-identify based on rough consensus and running code and merit. The article wasn't about hackers , the buzzword that is good to have on your meetup and LinkedIn profile. Such is the extent of the appropriation of hacker culture--there is this weird notion that workplace profe…

That's why I moved to "maker" if I absolutely have to pick a one-word label. So it goes.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#215

Post by TeMPOraL » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 5:29 PM UTC

ll123 wrote: post #212

tedks wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's definitely spot-on. I think it has a great example of anti-feminist/male-privileged mindset: > Desire for civility and freedom from objectification is "censorship" > Wanting to not support misogynists/rape apologists/rape denialists/sexual predators is worse than the soviets > My fear of social ostracism is as or more valid than your fear of being raped > My chosen "identities" are as important as the assigned s…

Typical privileged male trying to talk over a woman in tech's lived experience. Instead of screaming at her that she's wrong about everything, how about listening for once?

How about the reverse? It's SJW types that shout and don't listen. Everything has a good solution when two sides are willing to listen to one another.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#216

Post by theorique » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 5:33 PM UTC

kaitai wrote: post #146

blfr wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you want is an abrasive culture and I oppose that. Why? Why can't hyperion2010, or anyone else, have an abrasive culture if they want to? There is nowadays some controversy about, best as I can tell, gamers who like abrasive gaming, ie. shoot and insult each other. I can see how one might not want to participate, but why the need to force them to stop? Wouldn't leaving them to it be a reasonable solution? If som…

I don't necessarily disagree with you, blfr... but: If people like hyperion2010 or others want an abrasive culture, why can't they take what they dish? Why is it so ok for someone to call me a c*&t but I can't say the words "male privilege"?

The one is a personal insult that can be brushed off. The other is an accusation of unfairness in the entire system.

Are you surprised that the system (and the people within it) reacts to broad-based accusations about its structure, rather differently from how it reacts to angry beefs between individuals?

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#217

Post by haydenth » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 5:33 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #160

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. Sure, there's also various subcultures in the software development industry, but there isn't one big subculture there. There's the abrasive brogrammers, there's the sensitive political correctness advocates, there's the quiet nerd that just wants to be left alone, there's the hiring manager looking for new employees,…

> I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. And here I think is the crux of the problem; it's what the article was about. Tech became mainstream, and attracted people who look at it as a job. From the point of view of us native nerds, we became colonized and are being pushed back from the thing we built as our little place in the universe where we would feel…

waaaah

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#218

Post by TeMPOraL » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 5:36 PM UTC

cmsj wrote: post #208

TeMPOraL wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the difference there that goth is a subculture, while tech and software development is a job. And here I think is the crux of the problem; it's what the article was about. Tech became mainstream, and attracted people who look at it as a job. From the point of view of us native nerds, we became colonized and are being pushed back from the thing we built as our little place in the universe where we would feel…

We wanted to make tech be ever more awesome, we told everyone we knew how cool it is, regardless of whether they were interested. We asked for this, whether we like it or not :)

> We asked for this, whether we like it or not :)

Yes, unfortunately we did. We dreamed for an amazing world, but it's not what we got when the world joined in.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#219

Post by ChiperSoft » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 5:36 PM UTC

picks_at_nits wrote: post #200

dropit_sphere wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the dongle thing even remotely defensible? She got a man fired over a private conversation. One of the rules of civilized behavior is that you don't do that .

What exactly did she do? I recall she complained on Twitter, and exercised her freedom of speech to express her opinion. A number of people shared that opinion and also spoke freely about their opinion. In the fullness of time, his employers acted like craven cowards and sacked him. Did she sack him? No. Was he scarred for life? Ostracized? No, he found work again quickly. But what happened to her? A bunch of other p…

> What exactly did she do? I recall she complained on Twitter, and exercised her freedom of speech to express her opinion.

She took his photo and shared it on twitter. That's as good as calling him out by name.

> Was he scarred for life? Ostracized? No

That's not how he describes it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/magazine/how-one-stupid-tw...

Search the page for "Santa Clara"

> To anyone on the outside of that incident, it’s quite obvious that the treatment of the two persons involved was completely asymmetrical, especially considering that what she did was express an unpopular opinion.

And what was he doing, besides expressing an unpopular opinion?

> There is nothing remotely civilized about saying that she shouldn’t be allowed to object to anything she hears

Of course she should be allowed to object. She should also be sensible enough to recognize that including the identity of the individual in the objection is the same as asking the public at large to take action against the individual.

Free speech does not mean free from consequences. Both parties learned that in spades.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#220

Post by wpietri » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 5:37 PM UTC

picks_at_nits wrote: post #200

dropit_sphere wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the dongle thing even remotely defensible? She got a man fired over a private conversation. One of the rules of civilized behavior is that you don't do that .

What exactly did she do? I recall she complained on Twitter, and exercised her freedom of speech to express her opinion. A number of people shared that opinion and also spoke freely about their opinion. In the fullness of time, his employers acted like craven cowards and sacked him. Did she sack him? No. Was he scarred for life? Ostracized? No, he found work again quickly. But what happened to her? A bunch of other p…

Exactly. And I'll add that a private conversation is one thing. A conversation had in the middle of a crowd is another. And it's another still when that crowd is at a convention with a code of conduct and the conversation violates it.