Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 • Hacker News Board

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#211

Post by zxcvcxz » Mon, Feb 02, 2015, 4:31 PM UTC

superobserver wrote: post #201

microtonal wrote: post #37

I am usually not the one to blow the free software horn (being a staunch believer of non-copyleft licenses such as the Apache License) and the geek in me likes this announcement. I also don't hold a grudge against Windows, I think it is a fine system for most people. However, Windows seems very much contrary to the goal of the Raspberry Pi: providing a device for children to tinker with and educate themselves. Althou…

> It's in Microsoft interest to keep kids in their ecosystem Yep, which is also why they purchased Minecraft. It was more like purchasing the community of Minecraft users, which has a lot of children as well. I really wished there were a Micronix or something - combining the best of both worlds (Microsoft's extensive resources and reach coupled with GNU/Linux freedom and open-source development) - and that probably i…

Bill Gates can't continue espousing the ideas that everyone should have access to healthcare/technology/internet and be on the board of a company that charges way too much for an OS that --let's be honest-- isn't really miles ahead of any other OS...

I did like the fact that he posted a picture of kids using Ubuntu on his FB page though.

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#212

Post by slantyyz » Mon, Feb 02, 2015, 4:31 PM UTC

zanny wrote: post #194

bryondowd wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going to play devil's advocate here. Teachers will push Windows, because they know about it and they can teach it. If you throw a pile of linux machines at teachers, how many are going to have the time, ability, and will to actually learn it well enough to teach it? It's hard enough to get a school to teach kids anything beyond using Office. I'd be happy to make things as easy as possible on the teacher who are willi…

Except the teacher on Windows by design cannot teach a huge chunk of the stack that makes a computer a computer. They talk about hardware, maybe a bit about the ToS breaking NT source floating around this comment section, skip over everything else and land on this theme park island of C# standard library and Windows forms. It leaves a huge gap in the childs education on computing that is one the major reasons so many…

>> Except the teacher on Windows by design cannot teach a huge chunk of the stack that makes a computer a computer.

Is this really necessary for most kids? My view might be skewed because I grew up in the 80s, but everything I learned back then were things like Basic, COBOL, Fortran and Pascal. One of my high school classes did some assembly language on the Apple II, but I'm not sure most of the people in my class wanted to get down to the nuts and bolts.

If a kid is really into the nuts and bolts, they'll likely discover Linux organically. I learned most of my computing skills outside of class by doing my own research. And back then, there was no such thing as Google, just magazines at the newsstand and books in bookstores and the library.

I would say the majority of kids would probably be content enough learning how to make a web app, which can be easily done on Windows without needing knowledge of the stack that makes a computer a computer.

I just switched back to Windows from OSX, and the only reason why I have Visual Studio on my machine is so that I can compile some of my node libraries. I hardly think using Windows will breed a generation of .net developers at all.

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#213

Post by slantyyz » Mon, Feb 02, 2015, 4:36 PM UTC

ap0 wrote: post #203

There's nothing wrong with learning to first code on Windows. If it is easy for a kid to get going and start making stuff, they have a much better chance of sticking with it long enough to actually be interested in it as a hobby or career. My first programming experience was VB6 on Windows 98. I went from there to C in Visual C++. Fast forward to today and I write Java on OSX that is deployed to Linux machines. Most…

>> CS fundamentals can be taught on any system

This.

I don't know why a lot of people just assume that having Windows means you'll learn using Microsoft's development tools. Nothing's preventing you from choosing Apache over IIS, or Postgresql/MySQL over SQL Server Express.

Most major web app development platforms run on Windows, and there are plenty of good, free text editors too.

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#214

Post by zxcvcxz » Mon, Feb 02, 2015, 4:36 PM UTC

melling wrote: post #210

microtonal wrote: post #37

I am usually not the one to blow the free software horn (being a staunch believer of non-copyleft licenses such as the Apache License) and the geek in me likes this announcement. I also don't hold a grudge against Windows, I think it is a fine system for most people. However, Windows seems very much contrary to the goal of the Raspberry Pi: providing a device for children to tinker with and educate themselves. Althou…

Yes, Microsoft has been kicked pretty hard by free software and open hardware. Now they're adapting. However, I don't see a problem. Microsoft is making that hardware market even larger. If Linux is "cool" and interesting enough, kids will boot Linux and run it on one or more of their Raspberry Pi's. Linux developers should also consider that the "hackable system" feature is only one of many features that people cons…

What carrots does Windows have that Linux doesn't besides a larger variety of software?

Linux is used in far more circumstances than Windows and is just as capable as windows when it comes to 99% of tasks.

Buy Linux on an Ubuntu certified pc and you will have zero issues.

In reality most consumers don't use more than a web browser.

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#215

Post by patja » Mon, Feb 02, 2015, 4:38 PM UTC

benn_88 wrote: post #79

Note: Windows 10 on Pi 2 will be an IoT platform, not a desktop OS. You'll develop your app in Visual Studio on a Windows PC and deploy it to the Pi. Raspbian will continue to be the main supported OS. - Ben from Raspberry Pi

Ben can you shed any light on the EULA terms on the Microsoft site? To get access to this program you must accept the EULA which states that you will only be allowed one single install of pre-release software and the license is only good for 60 days.

Sounds more like a standard beta/RC license than a real "free for the maker community" license as the PR announcements seem to imply.

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#216

Post by UK-AL » Mon, Feb 02, 2015, 4:38 PM UTC

listic wrote: post #140

Has there been 'a version of Windows' (how is this one called, by the way?) that works on ARM, before? Does this version support any other ARM board?

Windows could technically support loads of platforms, they just don't sell it.

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#217

Post by eloisant » Mon, Feb 02, 2015, 4:38 PM UTC

melling wrote: post #210

microtonal wrote: post #37

I am usually not the one to blow the free software horn (being a staunch believer of non-copyleft licenses such as the Apache License) and the geek in me likes this announcement. I also don't hold a grudge against Windows, I think it is a fine system for most people. However, Windows seems very much contrary to the goal of the Raspberry Pi: providing a device for children to tinker with and educate themselves. Althou…

Yes, Microsoft has been kicked pretty hard by free software and open hardware. Now they're adapting. However, I don't see a problem. Microsoft is making that hardware market even larger. If Linux is "cool" and interesting enough, kids will boot Linux and run it on one or more of their Raspberry Pi's. Linux developers should also consider that the "hackable system" feature is only one of many features that people cons…

The problem is that you can see a lot of kids on RPi-related forums who are used to Windows, struggle with Linux because that what they have to use, and eventually learn a ton of stuff along the way.

The whole point of the RPi is to hack, if it's just a way to get a cheap, regular computer then a good part of the appeal is gone.

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#218

Post by sebastianavina » Mon, Feb 02, 2015, 4:40 PM UTC

zxcvcxz wrote: post #211

superobserver wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's in Microsoft interest to keep kids in their ecosystem Yep, which is also why they purchased Minecraft. It was more like purchasing the community of Minecraft users, which has a lot of children as well. I really wished there were a Micronix or something - combining the best of both worlds (Microsoft's extensive resources and reach coupled with GNU/Linux freedom and open-source development) - and that probably i…

Bill Gates can't continue espousing the ideas that everyone should have access to healthcare/technology/internet and be on the board of a company that charges way too much for an OS that --let's be honest-- isn't really miles ahead of any other OS... I did like the fact that he posted a picture of kids using Ubuntu on his FB page though.

Depending on the type of user you are, but Linux is miles ahead of Windows for research.

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#219

Post by eloisant » Mon, Feb 02, 2015, 4:42 PM UTC

zxcvcxz wrote: post #214

melling wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Microsoft has been kicked pretty hard by free software and open hardware. Now they're adapting. However, I don't see a problem. Microsoft is making that hardware market even larger. If Linux is "cool" and interesting enough, kids will boot Linux and run it on one or more of their Raspberry Pi's. Linux developers should also consider that the "hackable system" feature is only one of many features that people cons…

What carrots does Windows have that Linux doesn't besides a larger variety of software? Linux is used in far more circumstances than Windows and is just as capable as windows when it comes to 99% of tasks. Buy Linux on an Ubuntu certified pc and you will have zero issues. In reality most consumers don't use more than a web browser.

Mostly the fact that people already know it and are too lazy to learn anything else.

To take an example: building a Mame box. On Windows it's a major PITA because replacing the windows shell to start directly Mame is a big hack, because you need to configure Mame in command line / editing text file which is a pain on Windows, because you can't just ssh to edit config files from a regular laptop, etc. On Linux it's much easier, and you end up with a clean configuration that does just what you need.

But you know what? People still use Windows on their Mame cabs because it's their confort zone.

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#220

Post by 72deluxe » Mon, Feb 02, 2015, 4:43 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #80

bohol wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you overestimate the need for access to the OS for learning things. The cracking scene, demoscene and games industry was almost exclusively built on Windows. A lot of that was just as, if not more, advanced as what a Linux programmer does. I do think the trend of iOS, Android and similar Windows environments is troubling. But if they ship Windows 10 on the RPi with something like QBasic and Visual Studio it's…

I don't think Win 10 is about teaching kids to code. But then I don't think the Pi is really about teaching kids to code either. The Pi Foundation has done a good job of persuading everyone otherwise, but I'm left with a nagging suspicion that a computer designed for kids from the ground up would look very different. It's just too damn complicated for most kids. The nerds get it, but expecting the average ten year ol…

But is Linux about teaching kids to code? I don't think it is. I spent more time on RH6.2 attempting to learn how the system worked and how the heck to make my rubbish graphics card run X than running egcs or g++ back in the day. There was terse documentation for all the GTK stuff, and it was particularly daunting if you had not written any advanced C or C++ (like me). I did manage to write some rubbish programs under Qt thanks to the excellent documentation and through sheer perseverance under KDE2 but today installing Visual Studio is incredibly easy.

I ran Linux for years and still use it today for my Pi only but I think the INITIAL learning curve to use a system is less steep with Windows than Linux, particularly if you are presented with a CLI Linux login. If you are presented with a GUI then it may be different for a 6 year old but I wouldn't say that the Linux vs Windows discussion really takes into account how easy it is to get into programming on the platforms.

(I know you can install gcc and get writing C/C++ really quickly but you can do the same with Visual Studio without understanding a package management system).