Live data from Hacker News

For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

usmarshals.gov

211–220 of 424 posts

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had some ideas for mechanisms to peg without centralization. I stalled out at the question of what to peg to ...

a basket of currencies (real-world ones backed by governments, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_basket , where the US dollar, pound sterling, etc, etc, all have a weighted percentage.) but what on earth did you have in mind for a mechanism to do a peg without centralization?

I don't have room in this margin (actually, mental-bandwidth constrained right now) but the gist is 1) mechanisms to expand and contract the supply of money in circulation, in response to 2) mechanisms to determine whether money is over- or undervalued. A number of methods for the former should spring to mind. For the latter, my thought is that you add a type of mined block that contains proof of an outstanding bid and offer in each of the products you're pegging against, verified by some exchange/clearinghouse[1]. Such blocks would be accorded "difficulty" according to the tightness of the spread in each of the products and the size of the orders, as well as the subjective trustworthiness of the backing institution (including a penalty for being too common in the chain relative to others).

Of course, if it's known that the currency will correct itself in the long term, market makers would be expected to keep it stable in the short term.

Countless other details, but that's the gist...

[1] Unfortunately, this is not completely trust-free, but a level of decentralization is maintained by encouraging multiple such institutions, and of course people can broadly recognize and react when one becomes untrustworthy, and it should be fairly observable when they do.

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#212
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoins have value because they let you buy things.

You'd still be able to buy things if the exchange rate was 1 cent. Where's the rest of the value coming from?

Human nature. Hoarding, speculation, pain-avoidance ("could have/should have" 10yrs from now)... emotion. It's wonderful! The price is a reflection on our thought processes.

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#213
This is only what is currently being minted every 8.2 days. I predict the price will go up due to the media attention - this is a very cool story, expect lots of news coverage. When/if a Silk Road based movie ever comes out, expect "the moon".

You couldn't ask for a better story - the opposite of what Bitcoin really is when you think of it - finance, computers - stuff that bores the hell out of most people. Instead: drugs! conspiracy! magic internet money! Now, add "Satoshi" - mysterious inventor who's vanished. Seriously, you can't write this stuff!

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#214
post #202

This is good in a way. It's yet another tacit admission of the legal legitimacy of bitcoin by USG. It's not like USG would seize 20kg of cocaine then sell it into the market in an auction!

"This is actually good news!" -- http://thisisactuallygoodnews.com/ But seriously, I'm a bit suspicious about what gov would do with the list of all the people willing to buy those coins.

I see a long haul future for bitcoin, but you made my day with that link :)

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#216
post #35

It would be funnier if the bitcoin exchanges blocked those blockchains as having been permanently compromised. It would prevent the feds from having an incentive to seize bitcoins.

Doubt it, but I would love for it to happen. I see this as criminal theft by the USMS.

It is not theft, it is sale of abandoned property as they offered for people to claim their BTC and no one did.

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#217
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has very limited use as a serious transaction system while there is so much volatility. Prices are therefore pegged to local currencies, and if you want to keep that then it's no longer low cost because conversion to/from local currency costs just as much. The speculation and (eventually) deflationary nature of BTC significantly hinders the chances of it ever stabilising, and therefore a true 'bitcoin economy' eme…

The arguments you make (speculation + deflation) have been discussed many times. The answer is always the same. Bitcoin proponents argue that they are not a problem because: 1. As the use of Bitcoin increases over time, as the exchange markets become bigger and deeper, as economic activity is surpassing speculative activity, etc, the effect of speculation are becoming smaller and smaller. There is evidence that this…

Bitcoin proponents tend to have a vested interest and can be.. less than objective.

@1: A trade alone does not help BTC stabilise. We ARE seeing an increase in BTC trade, but all of this is pegged to local currency, and usually traded out for that immediately. As it is held for a very short period, there is no real effect on price, and is essentially the same as cashing out.[1] What might help BTC stabilise would be if there were a true, significant BTC economy, that is, items priced in BTC, rather than pegged to local currency. When I wake up tomorrow I can reasonably expect my loaf of bread is going to cost the same as it did when I went to bed. But that can't happen (yet) with BTC, because pegging goods to BTC carries far too much risk due to the volatility. Frankly, I can't see an attractive way to get to a situation where there is a substantial, viable BTC-first economy-- displacing local currencies as the first-choice isn't going to be easy. The only thing affecting the price of BTC is people buying and continuing to hold BTC (ie, in the absence of a real BTC economy-- speculators).

Further, I’m sure you can paint BTC stability as improving/worsening based simply on altering the time frame involved. The fact is the volatility is way too high (for consistent pricing), and we certainly don't have enough evidence to predict the future. You might have thought it was stabilising in October of last year before all hell broke loose.

@2: Not really a coherent argument there. An upward price trend (existing for whatever reason) encourages hoarding, which reduces liquidity. This creates a feedback loop, resulting in bubbles and crashes. Deflationary + speculation inherently leads to this, and we've seen it over and over already with BTC. Again, there is a chicken/egg problem because only speculators are interested in it, making it volatile, making it no good for non-speculators, which keeps it volatile! I think the best we could hope for is a little worse than gold (as it continues to be mined), which AFAIK still carries a significant amount of instability.

All this is not to say that bitcoin can't, or won't, be a long term success. It may well be; it has first-mover advantage, there is significant vested interest in it succeeding from those who have bought in, and it has a vast computing army. But it could be displaced. Or marginalised by an unlimited number of clones.

1. Ironically it is in a way simply passing half the transaction cost onto the customer.

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#218
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure one could possibly argue that this is morally or ethically "right". Legally it's apparently a-ok though. These coins were technically owned by all the people with accounts on the Silk Road and were not necessarily going to be used for illegal transactions. For all we know this is basically government stolen money from some guy who wanted to buy a sandwich with Bitcoin just for the laughs and to say he di…

[deleted]

That analogy is quite a reach, the guy behind silk road wasn't killing anybody or planning to.

With that said, I agree there's risk involved in having the Silk Road hold your money and you can expect it might be seized by law enforcement. That doesn't make the government in the right morally for doing so despite the law saying they can- which was exactly my point in the first place. I'm not sure we're really on different pages here based on this reply.

As an aside, I'd like to point out that Mt.Gox has clearly shown us the biggest crooks are the ones right out in the open.

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has very limited use as a serious transaction system while there is so much volatility. Prices are therefore pegged to local currencies, and if you want to keep that then it's no longer low cost because conversion to/from local currency costs just as much. The speculation and (eventually) deflationary nature of BTC significantly hinders the chances of it ever stabilising, and therefore a true 'bitcoin economy' eme…

All very good points. The volatility is the greatest hindrance to it being a viable transaction system. I'm hopeful that well functioning derivatives (futures, options, etc) will help to stabilize the price (as is the purpose of a futures market); however, that would rely on the traders having effective forecasts on supply and demand which I view as unlikely. Related to that, I thought of an idea a while ago for a no…

Such centralized system most likely will be shutdown by US government. See E-Gold, E-Bullion, Liberty Reserve:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_gold_currency#Manageme...

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't downvote, but I have to wonder what you're threshhold for not being a scam is? What companies will have to accept it, and how long will it have to be around? I'm pretty amazed that people still think it's a scam when huge companies with massive legal departments are accepting it. That's some pretty extreme skepticism. BTW, there are plenty of easy, legitimate ways to short Bitcoin, but given your extraordina…

This ^^^ I chuckled a little bit when he said hashes people are willing to pay hundreds of dollars for... annd those dollars are printed on paper with old dead guys on it. Ahh the world this guy lives in must be an interesting one.

it's intriguing to me that no one has pointed out the inherent value of BitCoin:

You can commit nearly anonymous transactions over long distances with it. It's value over international currencies is in proportion to the size of the black market transacted via BtC.

There are many people out there who don't try to get rich, they simply mine a handful to buy small amounts of drugs on the internet. The "convenience" of that service raises the utility and value of BtC over e.g. dollars.

Of course, I say nearly b/c a dedicated sleuth could investigate a transaction, but ask yourself as a practical matter, will federales go after an 18-year buying a gram of weed via BtC? of course not. The complexity of the BtC transacation obscures such small transactions well into the realm of "safety."

Post reply on HN