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Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

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Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But desalination isn't that kind of technology — it's the destructive kind. But is it really? You're effectively doing what occurs in nature. Clearing land and building a distribution infrastructure is destructive, but certainly no more than what is already going to happen regardless of whether or not desalinization is used. Pumping from salt water aquifers might qualify as well. > My question was genuine. It was,…

>You're effectively doing what occurs in nature. Remember, the alternative I'm comparing it to is restoring the land to a forested state (specifically one with much higher food production). >draining much of the run off into large basins …from which it evaporates, leaving the salt. Not a great plan. You have to design for the desert: evaporation > rainfall. That means getting the water shaded asap. Further, run-off i…

Remember, the alternative I'm comparing it to is restoring the land to a forested state

You do both, the two activities feed into each other, the greenhouses increase air moisture down wind and help you get plants growing, which feeds back into getting more rainfall once you get a large enough area going.

You have to design for the desert: evaporation > rainfall. That means getting the water shaded asap.

That's what the fucking greenhouse is for.

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#212
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A loss of criticality ensures that you don't end up with a positive feedback cycle that lets the problem spiral out of control faster than you can react, and possibly faster than you can comprehend. A pressurized water reactor relies on the pressure vessel not being breached in order for the passive decay cooling to work, if that happens we're right back to Fukushima/Chernobyl style problems. I am talking about short…

A pressurized water reactor relies on the pressure vessel not being breached in order for the passive decay cooling to work, if that happens we're right back to Fukushima/Chernobyl style problems. AFAIK the pressure vessel was never breached at Fukushima. They had plenty of problems whose primary cause was the absence of cooling water (including a hydrogen gas explosion), but there was never an uncontrolled criticali…

Yes that's true that there was never uncontrolled criticality. But that's because people were in there restoring some way to get water into the cores. Had that not happened, they likely would have melted down. Once all the water boils the heat doesn't have anywhere to go so temperatures go up. If that happened that's a melt-down and the core liquefies and then may or may not have been stopped by the containment shell. http://www.nbcnews.com/science/if-theres-meltdown-then-what-...

In my mind the worst-case scenario is that the core melts, the containment shell is cracked and the whole mess goes through the floor and into the ground. Has that been simulated at all? I'd love to read a paper if it has. I haven't seen anything with a cursory search.

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#213
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing Fukushima and Chernobyl is... Perfectly valid. Neither were failsafe. Where failsafes existed, they were disabled. Bad things happened. ...have delivered decades of power with no problems. Yet. The externalities are brutal.

Neither were failsafe. Where failsafes existed, they were disabled. What failsafes were deliberately disabled at Fukushima? Yet. The externalities are brutal. So are the externalities from coal mining and oil drilling. They just have a much more diffuse impact, so nobody complains. Per unit of energy delivered, nuclear has much less impact.

Fukushima's shield wall failed. Pretty much the opposite of failsafe.

Anticipating your continued argumentative retorts in your spirited defense of nukes, it's also well known (documented) that this was an identified risk, and that other reactors along the coast did have sufficiently high shield walls.

You've omitted stockpiling reactive waste from your calculus. Ditto the inadvertent release of contamination.

A small tip: If you're pro nuke, you may want to advocate traveling wave reactors. Treehuggers like me are looking for solutions, not more rhetoric.

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#214
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither were failsafe. Where failsafes existed, they were disabled. What failsafes were deliberately disabled at Fukushima? Yet. The externalities are brutal. So are the externalities from coal mining and oil drilling. They just have a much more diffuse impact, so nobody complains. Per unit of energy delivered, nuclear has much less impact.

Fukushima's shield wall failed. Pretty much the opposite of failsafe. Anticipating your continued argumentative retorts in your spirited defense of nukes, it's also well known (documented) that this was an identified risk, and that other reactors along the coast did have sufficiently high shield walls. You've omitted stockpiling reactive waste from your calculus. Ditto the inadvertent release of contamination. A smal…

Fukushima's shield wall failed.

You mean the seawall that was protecting the switchgear for the backup diesel generators? That didn't fail; it was simply not high enough to keep out the tsunami. Which, as you note, was not the case for other similar reactors:

it's also well known (documented) that this was an identified risk, and that other reactors along the coast did have sufficiently high shield walls.

Agreed. Which shows that reactor designs of that generation can be operated safely. See below.

You've omitted stockpiling reactive waste from your calculus.

Which is a lot easier if you reprocess the spent fuel, as every nuclear-using country except the US does (US policy forbade it from the mid-1970's until about 2000, since then there have been, IIRC, contractual issues getting it started).

Ditto the inadvertent release of contamination.

Which, once again, is much smaller than other major energy sources when evaluated per unit of energy produced.

Treehuggers like me are looking for solutions, not more rhetoric.

And once again, of all the other major energy sources--by "major" I mean "capable of sustaining the required base load capacity for a country the size of the US at first world standards of living"--nuclear is by far the safest. What opposition to nuclear power by treehuggers like yourself has done is to force people to make a choice: either drastically reduce our standard of living, or use energy sources with much greater health and environmental impacts like coal and oil. Guess which choice people picked?

I completely agree that, now that we have safer nuclear reactor designs, we should be building them, and not building any more of the older, less safe designs. (I don't know that traveling wave reactors are at the point where we can build operating plants, btw; but there are other inherently safe designs that are further along.) But given that we have plenty of existing plants that are perfectly capable of being operated safely, we can get cleaner energy from them than we can from coal and oil.

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent years volunteering with Seawater Greenhouse and Charlie Paton, the inventor, including working in one of the pilot plants in Australia for a short while. They are very interesting technology and if I wasn't working on the organization I am working on now I would probably be working with a large scale Seawater Greenhouse installation somewhere today.

That is really good of you. Massive amounts of respect. Out of interest, what is it you are now working on? edit - I just had a look at what you are doing through your username, akvo looks pretty cool.

Thanks! We try.

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But desalination isn't that kind of technology — it's the destructive kind. But is it really? You're effectively doing what occurs in nature. Clearing land and building a distribution infrastructure is destructive, but certainly no more than what is already going to happen regardless of whether or not desalinization is used. Pumping from salt water aquifers might qualify as well. > My question was genuine. It was,…

>You're effectively doing what occurs in nature. Remember, the alternative I'm comparing it to is restoring the land to a forested state (specifically one with much higher food production). >draining much of the run off into large basins …from which it evaporates, leaving the salt. Not a great plan. You have to design for the desert: evaporation > rainfall. That means getting the water shaded asap. Further, run-off i…

> Remember, the alternative I'm comparing it to is restoring the land to a forested state (specifically one with much higher food production).

I'm puzzled. If the land is forested, it's no longer usable for crops in the sense that land occupied by trees cannot simultaneously be occupied with something else. So, even if you interspersed crops among the trees somehow, you're not going to have higher food production than fields that consist of nothing but food crops.

> …from which it evaporates, leaving the salt. Not a great plan.

I see you're cherry picking my comments without full context. Although I can't remember specifically why I mentioned drainage basins. I suspect it was because of run-off storage. See below.

Anyway, the point of solar desalinization (or rather, any desalinization) is to, well, evaporate or separate the water to separate salt and other unwanted things in solution, so unless you're willing to accept that desalinization is going to yield dissolved salts, then there's no point in doing it, is there? The salt doesn't magically disappear.

I also suspect that you may not live in a climate like I do, which is largely classified as a high desert, mountainous region. You don't have to design for run-off. Run-off is a given. An inch or less of rain leads to heavy flooding of lower areas simply because the soil isn't conducive to drainage or absorption of precipitation, and the steep canyons upstream serve to collect and concentrate rainfall. So, you wind up with low-lying areas that fill up with brine collected upstream from various salts and minerals, and eventually settle in subterranean aquifers that are entirely non-potable without desalinization. The drainage basins already exist. Oftentimes, salt lakes appear and persist for weeks following a rain because the atmospheric humidity is too high to allow for quick evaporation. The upshot is that if you were using a solar greenhouse, you wouldn't have to pump the water particularly far. Or you could pump it out of the ground.

> The Ogallala aquifer is currently pumped 6x faster than it's being recharged,

I wasn't talking about potable water. I was humoring the "seawater greenhouse" as a method of treating non-potable water, pumped from underground briny aquifers. I think you have this idea in mind that all subterranean water deposits are fresh water. They're not.

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#217
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of these aquifers are finite. There may come a time when every one in Colorado is drained -- if there are any at all.

So then one doesn't have to live there, if there's truly no source of water whatsoever. There is no divine mandate that people have to live there, and given the constant urbanization of the world, it's not clear people even want to live in rural areas.

Umm....I think Denver would resent being referred to as a "rural area." And Boulder. And Colorado Springs.

Ignoring the "rural" aspect of what you're saying, the same can be said of Vegas. And most of Arizona. Not to mention, ahem, SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA. You suggesting that the 20M+ people in SoCal should pick up and leave because there isn't enough water? Because there isn't, except if you count the water imported from COLORADO.

Colorado actually has PLENTY of water; it's just that legally we're bound to give it to others.

Aside from which point, infrastructure costs money. "Pick up and move elsewhere" isn't reasonable if "elsewhere" doesn't have the infrastructure for millions of people.

Did you actually read the comment thread before replying?

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